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MG TD TF 1500 - oil leaks (again)

Hi, I've just finished a few major jobs on my TF1500. Most have gone well, with the gearbox rattling disappeared, very satisfied with the new 4.3 diff. Big problem is still oil leaking from the rear of the engine. Have fitted a Moss replacement seal carrier very carefully but am disappointed that it still leaks.
I will have to go over a lot of things again, BUT my query is how come it leaks after I turn the engine off but not when it is running. I am sure there is a good explanation, but it makes no sense to me. Does anyone have an simple explanation, and does this behaviour suggest where the original leek might be coming from. Thanks in anticipation. Paul Hicks
New Zealand
P Hicks

Did you install a speedy sleeve on the crankshaft flange? If not, I recommend that you do and then replace the seal again.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Hi Bill,
Yes I used a speedi sleeve and the special centering tool to set it all up. Thought I had done everything as per instructions but maybe not?
Best wishes
Paul
P Hicks

Hi Paul
In my YT XPAG I have installed a Speedy Sleeve in lieu of the original rear crank oil seal as well.

My mechanic and I had the block and sump to the machinist a number of times to get the correct tolerances. (Our engines were not made with the tolerances of modern engines).
Even with all this work, the seal/sleeve still leaks and the bell housing drips oil. I have even reduced the amount of oil in the engine, so the crank and rod do not splash excessive oil around.

After a 500km recent round trip, mostly on motorway at 85kph, I had about 30ml in my under bell housing drip tray.

cheers
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

Paul,
I'm in the same boat. I installed the Moss seal kit, then the improved Moss seal kit with a speed-sleeve, and still get a pool of oil. I followed the directions carefully.I had to install the nice aluminum drip tray to take care of the day to day drips, but have actually overflowed the drip tray.

My TF will start dripping within minutes of an engine start. Very discouraging.

Tyler
C.T. Irwin

I use a neoprene impregnated/cork seal for the rear engine seal and a modern lip seal for the timing cover to crankshaft seal. In both cases I also use Toyota Gasket Sealer which was recommended buy an older mechanic many years ago. Certainly care is needed in sealing up particularly in the 'step' area of the rear seal gasketing.

I must be lucky with both the 1250 and 1500, as currently no leaks on both cars in these areas.

Rob Grantham
TF37179 ("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Hi Paul,

I have seen instructions for the Moss Kit but not a kit itself. However, as it works on the same principal as the seal kits I made from about 1987 to 2000, I have a couple of suggestions.
1: I don't think the Moss instructions I saw, showed an important area to seal during assembly. (See image which shows where oil can leak.) The crosshatched area must be sealed. Diagram is not of Moss seal but should apply.
2: From memory, the Moss instructions suggest a small return hole through the rear main cap. My instructions stated a 3/8" hole. This hole should be as low as possible (without emerging in the cork groove) so the pool of retained oil is as shallow as possible.
3: I have always thought that the cars leak more when stationary because while running, wind created by the flywheel and clutch spreads the oil around the bellhousing. When the engine stops, the oil all runs to the lowest point.
Bob Schapel


R L Schapel

Be kind to yourself and ditch the Moss product, the reliability is very poor. Take the plunge, strip the block and fit the "Chevy Seal Conversion", this converts the XPAG to the modern conventions of sealing an engine rear main.
G Evans

G:
I found the "chevy seal conversion" link. Pretty informative. I wish I knew about those 2 bench test methods from the beginning. An engine and tranny pull are on my radar (did the tranny myself during the resto, and it appears I'm not that good at it).

Tyler
C.T. Irwin

You probably already know this, but, make sure your crankcase is breathing properly with no restrictions, if not pressure will build up and increase oil leakage. PJ
PJ Jennings

To answer your question, when the motor is on, the slinger on the crank is throwing the oil back into the engine.

When it is off, the oil runs down the slinger and out the seal.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce pointed out the function of the slinger which served decently "for all practical purposes." Sorry to hear the oil seal doesn't provide 100% leak protection.

If it really bothers you, take a minute and stick a "drip catcher" from ebay under the bellhousing. Zero drip. That's a whale of a lot less work than pulling the trans and oil pan.

I just leave a pan on the garage floor to contain most of the drips.
JIM N

Thank you for all your suggestions, I pulled the whole lot apart again. The rear seal seemed to be correctly place on the speedi sleeve. I replaced it anyway as a precaution. I di shorten the drain pipe from the rear main and I uesd copious quantities of sealer around the Moss seal holder. I also fitted the lower seal holder and the lower ear main holder on at the same time. This reduced the chance of scrapping the sealer of between the two vertical surfaces. I also put plenty of sealer around the actual main bearing housing. Put it all back together and lo and behold - no oil leaks. So your advice worked.
P Hicks

On the subject of the crankshaft "thrower" has there ever been a detailed specification of exactly what the grooves etc should be? As the principle makes some sort of sense perhaps the design was never quite correct in its contouring etc. I'm not an engineer and leave this open to thoughts to the more knowledgable.
JK Mazgaj

Interesting comment. As a design it is almost certainly not optimised and could be made considerably better today. Not that I think there is any chance that its going to happen.
Dave H
Dave Hill

I'll add both to the ever increasing list. These two are #78 and #79. The list was not reproduced in the April issue of the TTORC mag but I've had a number of requests to reinstate it for the June edition, with a couple of new items added and a couple that apparently have been addressed, (thanks Joe), but well over 70 that haven't... I expect with 119 members now and growing, there will be more items that members have expressed concern over. If anyone has experienced problems with quality and fitment issues from the major supplier, but wishes to remain anonymous, please contact me with details off line at pjbm at bigpond dot com. Cheers?
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Do it right! Line bore the main bearing housings to achieve a bearing clearance of .0008"-.001" This will result in an interference fit between the crank & the oil thrower, hand scrape the thrower to fit with no interference. If done correctly AND the cork main bearing seal correctly fitted and sealed with RTV the result has been ZERO leaks for many years and miles on my TD, at the worst only a drop about 1" in diameter.
Len Fanelli
Abingdon Performance Ltd.
Len Fanelli

"Do it right! Line bore the main bearing housings to achieve a bearing clearance of .0008"-.001".

I'll definitely be making this request of the guy who is assembling my "back up" block. It sounds like sound advice to me. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The best thing about publishing a list of defective parts to a limited group of people with no connection to the vendor is that there is no chance of actually addressing the issue.

When I was a young fella I used to fix TVs, my invoice read “ If you are not happy tell me, if your happy tell somebody else”. It wasn’t original, it worked.

I don’t purchase directly from Moss, but often I buy parts through a Moss agent, every question I have has been answered fully. I have only had 1 item that I had an issue with, turned out the agent sourced this directly.

I purchase extensively through Abingdon Spares in CT, their products are top of the line, their service is above and beyond. I have Ed’s email address in my contacts list and I get an answer in minutes. Logistically they are able to get parts to me in 48 hours.

Now, if this “list” was to be shared with the vendor spelling out the exact issue complete with photos, dimensions and descriptions, said vendor might be able to something about it. I have seen several items on the Moss website where explanations have been added to address issue customers have had when using that item.

Constructive criticism goes a long way to perfecting the product, publishing a list to a small sample of folk might make the publisher feel good, but does nothing for the MG T community at large.

Somebody high up in the Moss organization lurks on forums, maybe not this one.

Enuf said.
P G Gilvarry

https://mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/or17?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=8&subjectar=8&thread=2016020523340821019 . Posted 5 Feb 2016. Initial complaint directed personally by phone to Moss CEO Glen Adams at 3 am Sydney time by phone in 2014. He took my call from Sydney, Australia, listened to the details of each complaint, promised he would PERSONALLY investigate each of the then 17 items on the list AND would get back to me. I'm still waiting for a reply... and the number on the list has almost doubled since this thread was posted in 2016. This list is based on emails that I'd received from people who'd complained to Moss and were really pissed off because nothing was done about it. I fully expect the list will continue to grow and TTORC members will continue to be made aware of parts that are unfit for use. Caveat emptor. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

My guess is that his conversation with his Logistics staff went something along the lines of “how much stuff do we send to Australia”, when he got the answer he probably flushed his memory.

Moss is a large business, covering most British Marques and an extensive Miata catalog. I would not want to guess at how many thousands of part numbers they have in their inventory.

I used to shop with Browns & Gammons in the UK when I lived in Hong Kong, occasionally I still do as they have good products, good service and very reasonable pricing. And sometimes they have more accurate parts available.

When I need SU parts I shop at Burlen in the UK.

I guess as someone who has lived in many parts of the world I just got lucky to have only needed parts that were well made and suppliesd by the vendor I was using at that time.

Picking up on comments broadcast here, slamming a vendor who most of us here in the USA use without issue, and then publishing those comments to a tiny exclusive group, does nothing to improve conditions for those fellow forum users from whom you glean information, to then spread it to a limited audience.

If nobody sees the irony of copyrighting a piece of information gathered in the public domain then I guess I do not understand the spirit of these forums that exist for the good for all owners of these LBCs. People with lots of knowledge give freely of their time for the good of others, that is what these forums are for, not to gather information for the exclusive use of some small group.

Goodnight, and goodbye.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

This thread was discussed between 07/11/2019 and 18/04/2020

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