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MG TD TF 1500 - OT- New Manuals page on Ttalk

I've set up a new http://www.ttalk.info/Manuals.html page on Ttalk as a spot for various TD/TF manuals that some of you have offered. It's going to take some organization and periodic edits, so I'd suggest that you refresh your browser when you open it. Bud
Bud Krueger

Thank you, Bud. These are really useful.
Jack Long

Even though I have all the manuals for a TF, The manuals you set up Bud are really handy for a quick reference, thanks for your efforts, much appreciated. PJ
Paul161

Thank you. very useful.

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

Thanks for making these available Bud. Very helpful. I guess we don't need to worry about copyright issues - glad they have been scanned.
DLD

Ah you do have to worry about copyright issues, at least in the US. Brooklands Books bought all of these copyrights years ago.
Christopher Couper

All of them, Chris? Gee, I sure that the folks who are submitting the files have handled that. Bud
Bud Krueger

The owners manuals you are OK with. They came with the car and we all have (or did have) a copy. This is considered your fair use, and it's needed to operate the car. Now if you don't own an T series (or aren't driving one), that's a different story.

The WSM were a pay item, even in the day. US Copyright laws are insane and changed in 1975 to be valid for just about forever, and can be transferred. Note I have to keep some content off the MGTD/TF sites because certain parties don't want to share their IP from the 50's, even though there is no practical use for it today. I contacted every IP owner that I could to insure that they were OK with it. For those that don't exist anymore or I have no idea who the owner is, I am a bit at risk.

Brooklands Books bought the rights for most (all?) BMC manuals and makes money from selling them on Amazon and via distributors. When they go onto the Internet, then in essence we are stealing from them.

Funny thing about this is that the T manuals were never marked copyright best I can remember until they were reproduced later. None the less.

Anyway I hate to be Debby Downer but the Internet is not a nice place and is still evolving.
Christopher Couper

When I was first trying to find a .pdf version of the manual I asked what was available and the copyright question came up. I actually did some research on US and UK copyright laws trying to determine whether there was an issue. I also contacted Barney Gaylord of mgaguru.com because he has kept a downloadable copy of the MGA WSM on his website for over 10 years.

I'm no expert in these matters, but from my research it seems that the MGTD/TF manual is in the public domain. In fact, I don't think it was every actually copyrighted in the US. There are certain minimum requirements to be considered copyright that the manual doesn't meet, including the requirement that the word "copyright" appear with the date. Versions published after 1954 would have been required to have the little c inside a circle along with the date.

I don't know why the factory wouldn't have sought a copyright, perhaps they didn't care if their manuals were copied or really didn't expect they would be. I mean, they are of a very limited and narrow use, after all. There are also some laws in the US that require car manufacturers to share repair information with independent repair shops, so maybe they thought it was pointless to try to protect the information.

Barney also understood that the MGA manual was in the public domain, though he acknowledged he wasn't an expert either. He did say that he has never received any notification of any problem.

If I thought there was a valid copyright I would not have shared the material, and if someone can show me that there is a copyright I will be the first to insist it be removed.





David Littlefield

Again I am not trying to be Debbie Downer or the Internet police, just responding to some comments:

I don't have copies of the repo T series manuals but have seen them and Brooklands Books does have their copyright as well as BMC on them.

Here is a copy of the MGA 1600 Drivers Handbook (original) with a copyright. Like I said, the original T manuals did not have copyright's on then in the 50's but added them later when the copyright laws changed from what I have seen.

Just because somebody does not catch you or notify you does not mean you are in the clear or legally right. Remember ignorance of a law does not negate your responsibility or liability.



Christopher Couper

I understand your viewpoint, Christopher, and I'm afraid we'll just have to acknowledge that we have a different take on this.

I have read much of the US Copyright law and it didn't change much from 1909 through at least the early 60's and then changed in the 70's then became quite different in 1989 when the Berne Convention was adopted.

When the WSM was originally published the law is very clear. "Notice," in the form of the word "Copyright" next to the date of creation and the copyright owner's name was absolutely required. Otherwise, works published without notice immediately went into the public domain. In 1954 the law was changed such that the c inside a circle could be substituted for the word "copyright." As you have noted, such notice does not appear in the early versions of the manual, but only in later reprints and reproductions. Much later, the requirement for notices was removed, but that's only relevant to new material published after the Berne Convention was adopted in 1989.

It could well be that someone at BMC woke up to the fact that they had omitted the notice in prior publications (perhaps out of ignorance of "foreign" requirements?), did a face-palm, then began putting copyright notice on later publications. Based on the lack of notice on the original MGA WSM and Operator's Manuals I have and the date on the later version you pictured (which actually must be a reprint, given the date), this might have happened some time between 1962 and 1964. Perhaps not coincidentally, there were some changes in US Copyright law in 1964 and that might have brought the subject to BMC's attention.

In any case, I would agree that later reprints and reproductions are protected by copyright if they have such notices, but it isn't the later publications that were scanned. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but law tends to be a hair-splitting experience. I wonder if even the later copyrights are valid, considering that, at that point, BMC, etc., were trying to copyright material already in the public domain, but that's one hair I'd rather not attempt to split.

As far as it goes, I'll leave it up to Bud as to whether he wants to leave the information up. There is absolutely no benefit to me by keeping the material available. I'm quite comfortable that I'm not trying to hide behind ignorance. I feel I've done my due diligence, but I'm open to informed correction if I've got something wrong.

I'll give you that I probably shouldn't have mentioned Barney's experience. You're right, the fact that no one has bothered him about it shouldn't be relied on for anything.
David Littlefield

This thread was discussed between 24/03/2016 and 30/03/2016

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