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MG TD TF 1500 - Patent plate on the sidescreen

I sanded the side curtain frames on TD 4139 (two bow top). I did not find any holes where the patent plate would go on any of the frames.

Chris cooper says it was on the top of the right side window frame. He has pictures of the patent plate on the side curtain frame of 1953 TD 27489.

So here we are again. Did the early TD have a patent plate on the windscreen frame?

Bruce Cunha

It was on the TD 1250 frames but I'm afraid I did not take any photos of it.
L E D LaVerne

Bruce will this help? PJ

PJ Jennings

Thanks PJ. I have the plate. Picked one up from FTFU along with the small rivits. But I dont have any holes in my frame for the plate.

I have no idea if they sold replacement frames back prior to 1973 when I got the car. Just odd that there are no holes for the plate.

Since 1250 had the plate, it would appear It was not an early VS late TD thing.

OK, I would love a bit more input from other early TD owners, but it would appear I need to get measurements on where it went and drill holes for the rivets.
Bruce Cunha

As with many things dealing with the MGTD, I have gotted responses to this question from both people that have the patent plate, and others that do not have the plate or holes for the plate.

I have folks reporting they have the patent plate on early TDs (TD 1250 has it), I have others (TD 550) that do not.

Both of these folks tell me they are original side curtan frames.

So,another TD issue that does not have a clear answer.

I will add the patent plate, as there would appear to not be any way anyone else would know if it came with one or not.
Bruce Cunha

Mr. Cunha:

I have attached a photo of my RH side-curtain frame. It came with my TD 16504, which came off the line on 26 May 1952. I've owned the car since the summer of 1968 and I have no reason to believe it is not original to the car.

I have annotated the photo - as follows:

- hole 1 - the mounting hole for the chrome
trim forward of where the patent plate
mounts;

- hole 2 - the forward mounting hole for
the patent plate;

- hole 3 - the rearward mounting hole for
the patent plate; and

- hole 4 - the mounting hole for the
chrome trim to the rear of the patent plate.

The distances between the holes is as follows:

- between holes 1 & 2 - 1-9/16";

- between holes 2 & 3 - 1-13/16"; and

- between holes 3 & 4 - 1-7/16"

I used a steel ruler to eye-ball these measurements - not an extremely accurate vernier caliper nor a micrometer.

Hope this helps.


Charlie King
(TD 16504)


C G King

PJ:

I see the picture you provided from Moss says TC, TD, TF applications. My frames are bare at the moment, and there are no holes for the patent plate. Do you or anyone else know if these were on the TF side screen frames?

Jim
Jim Rice

I talked to Jim Silva. Jim is one of the top MG upholsteres in the country. He sews up a lot of side curtains.

Jim feels that originally there was a patent plate on all TD R side front sidescreen frames.

He feels there were reproduction frames made sometime in the past.

I don't have enough input from original cars to dispute this.

Charles The diagrams are perfect. Is it ok if I ask Chris Cooper to add these to his web page so others that may not have the patent plate can have a reference?

Bruce Cunha

Mr. Cunha:

When you say "Charles" - I assume you are asking me - because I don't see any other "Charlie" in this thread? If so - certainly - by all means. If the photo and the measurements are any help to anyone - that is what this forum is all about - as is Chris' website.

Charlie King
(TD 16504)
C G King

ALL TFs had the Patent Plate on the Driver's door
sidescreen frame. (at least rhd cars)

Sometimes a 'well meaning' Painter fills these holes
up!

Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

Thanks Rob:

I imagine that's probably true regardless of LHD or RHD. As these were being mass produced and delivered to the factory, likely no way of knowing if a set pulled from stock was going to a LHD or RHD vehicle. Out of curiosity, who's patent was it? MG's or another company?

I see this currently listed as NOS for a TD application on eBay made by MOWOG but no patent plate on any of the frames:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364050419587?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=364050419587&targetid=1645685073248&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9032050&poi=&campaignid=16730423415&mkgroupid=135815925780&rlsatarget=pla-1645685073248&abcId=9300841&merchantid=8004594&gclid=CjwKCAiAuOieBhAIEiwAgjCvcgY05_LMca95nGAjbChszXBNVe5Rsi5Ky-iiso0ZlhfUFqFVRXrD6RoCoSgQAvD_BwE

Hopefully the link works.

Jim
Jim Rice

I did an internet search of old patents and found this.

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=450267A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19360714&DB=en.worldwide.espacenet.com&locale=en_EP#

The patent was submitted by Morris Motors Ltd and Frederick Arthur Green, probably an employee.

Click on 'Description' (left corner box) for more info.

It's amazing the old information that is still available if you look hard!

BTW, my TD11565 (1951) has the plate, and definitely original.

David
David Padgett

Interesting, the ones on Ebay are listed as NOS and in a MOWOG package. There is not a patent plate on them.

So, that would indicate that if they are NOS, some did not have the patent plate on them.
Bruce Cunha

This thread was discussed between 26/01/2023 and 02/02/2023

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