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MG TD TF 1500 - Shimming doors

What type of shims do you all use on the doors?
CJ Henderson

CJ,

I don't know of anybody who uses shims. Generally the doors can be properly aligned usually by setting the hinges in proper orientation.

The diagonal turnbuckle inside the door frame can be effectively used to make the door itself, straight.

The hinges must me made fast elsewise they become loose and will certainly cause door misalignment, with the subsequent risk of the door flying open at speed.

I personally am against shimming as it only leads to other problems. As I indicated, make sure your hinges are solid both on the tub and and on the door.

Here are two recent posts by Mort Resnicoff and Jim Benjamin that tell a story. Getting the door straight is only half the story, but much easier than getting the entire tub straight!

In aligning your door latches, again try to avoid shimming. Better to use inserts and fasten the plate with metal screws. The same applies to the latch on the tub.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A Clark



Gord, There's no way my doors would work without shimming! I've restored the body panels, the door panels, the scuttle, quarter panels, fire wall, some wood and the first fit up, the doors would drag on the bottom. They were fitted while the tub was on the chassis and that had to be shimmed also in 3 places on both sides of the chassis. If your car has no shims in it anywhere, I'd like to see it!
CJ, You can make shims for the doors from thin sheet metal, cut to match the size of the hinge. Two shims will have two holes punched in them and the other two will have three. In place, the shims are barely noticeable. Anyone can tell you, fitting of the doors is a chore on these cars and about the most tedious job. JMHO. PJ
Paul S Jennings

Similar to Paul, I am using 1/16 brass sheet.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

During restoration, I did shim and align the tub mounting points first, and my left door was still too high in the opening. Glenn's MG Repair that did my final body work made the nice final shims that went under the top hinge for final alignment. I had made and also used steel backer plates for the nuts to keep things snug. George
George Butz

Well I don't shim the doors either. But I do use shims. The shims are for the body which indirectly affects the door opening. You shim the body where it attaches to the frame to pry open or close the door opening.

Note I also bend the hinges prior to painting. I have compared a lot of factory hinges and I think they did this too because few of them were exactly the same.

The last technique to use is the one that Gordon posted above.

See:

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_tips.htm#Finishing
Christopher Couper

I have restored 4 T series cars, and worked on countless more cars. I have removed a lot of shims from the hinges while adjusting the doors, and I have never put any back. I would bend the door hinges, shim the tub and use a turn buckle on the doors befoe I used shims. Once the door closes well the striker plate can be adjusted up, down, in, out and fore and aft to acheive a solid close on the second click.
It takes time and patience.
David
D. Sander

It is vital that the top and bottom hinge pins are in alignment. If you knock out the pins and replace them with a rod the flaps should be a perfect fit to the body and door. If they are not you can either bend them or use shims but it is quite possible that the shims will have to be tapered.


Jan T
J Targosz

The advice given by Chris and Jan T is spot on except for the hinge shimming if you are looking for originality.

I have restored close to 40 T series cars and have never used shims under the hinges, nor do we bend the hinges as a rule.

If the wooden B or hinge pillars are not set correctly within the frame then door fit is compromised. The factory had a comprehensive jig that ensured these and the A pillars were accurately positioned. I have jigs as well for the wood assembly.

The rod through the top and bottom hinge pins is the best way to get hinge alignment.

The method to get door fit is to pack the body mounts on the chassis, down at the rear mount lifts the door up, up at the rear drops the door down. The other mount positions are also packed for final fit. It is usual that all the chassis to body mounts packers are of different thicknesses.

I do not use turn buckles either, its essential to ensure the tub is diagonally square across the top front hoop mounts.

It can take allot of time to get the doors fitting correctly before the lead loading is done at the rear top of the B pillar and the door top at the front to blend to the scuttle.

I sympathise with the home restorer as our methods were taught during our training and gained from the experience of the tradesmen we trained under.

It sounds like you get alignment in the end by using unorthodox methods, but if a little time is spent on the chassis packers, alignment is usually accomplished.
Rod Brayshaw

I sincerely appreciate all of the advice given. I have already shimmed the left rear part of the tub and put turn buckles in the doors. But when you replace every piece of timber in the tub then it isn't quite that easy. In fact it's like taking the skeleton out of a human being and replacing it with a different skeleton and hoping that it stands up straight. Since I have no jigs to work with I'm down to shimming the door and praying that I don't screw it up to badly.
CJ Henderson

CJ, I did the same type body restoration as you have done. No jigs, new wood etc. When fitting the doors, I did use some metal chassis shims between the body and frame to get the best door fit I could manage. Eventually, the doors fit pretty well but needed a bit of hinge bending to get them right. A folded up shop towel placed between the hinge halves was my bending tool. No scratched paint and the door itself was my lever. As David said, it takes time, patience and figuring out which hinge to bend will get the door where it needs to be. My doors have the desired two click on closing. GO SLOW
Jim Merz

Interesting discussion. At restoration, I replaced most of the right side tub wood, and that side did not need any shim or major adjustment to fit the door. On the problematic left side, my tub and door wood was close to pristine and left original. I spent a very long time shimming the tub, bending the hinges, and it still took a couple thin shims (which are totally invisible)to fit the door. I certainly would try to get it as close as possible of course without shims. Yesterday I was looking for some parts for my 280Z and ran across "door hinge shims" in a catalog and had to laugh! Whatever works, take your time and get it perfect in primer. It is really nice when people come up to you at shows and compliment your door gaps. George
George Butz

I use 5/16 fender washers for shims, with one neoprene washer at every body mount. to bend the hinges I use a pine stick and gently close the door on the stick to bend the hinge as necessary.
David
D. Sander

I think we should take into consideration that we are working on 60 plus year old cars and we are not factory workers who did this every day building a brand new car! We all try to get these cars as perfect as we can and we do a pretty damn good job in my estimation, but I think the problem here some of us are after too much perfection resurrecting these old cars. We are school teachers, office workers, electricians, carpenters, farmers etc, we all want them to look pretty, but we all don't have the skills of others and some of us are working on a limited budget. So we do what we can with the skills and money we have, to make, in some cases, a piece of junk look like a new car again. And, I've seen this happen many times at shows, a car picked apart by the "experts" on a guy who spent many years of his life, working on a budget, learning as he goes, trying to make his car work and look nice again. I don't do that and would never do that, but it exists at every show. Oh yes, there are 8 non British bolts in my car, I thought I'd better let that out, yup 8! They hold the front shocks down. Hope the hangman isn't too close! LOL! LOL! PJ

Here they are!


Paul S Jennings

The body hinge socket is the one to watch. The outer skin of the rear panel is knocked over into this but only for about 3/16". This means the hinge flap sits at an angle. Also I have tried using a straining strap diagonally across the door frame and even went to the length of fabricating a LH / RH screw in the middle for adjustment. This lifted the bottom corner of the door but this can be accomplished by shims between the body and chassis. The reason why I was messing around with the straining strap was to try to pull the bottom corner of the door close to the body. I've seen many TDs and TFs with a 1/2" or more cap at the bottom corner and mine was like that. The straining strap was absolutely useless for this and after literally two weeks of frustration I bought a new door skin from Hutsons, dismantled the old door, and cleaned up the corner joints in the wooden frame so this was a good fit in the body. The attached photo' shows how it looks now. Fitting the doors has been the worst job on both my TD and TF.


Jan T


J Targosz

Jan T. Looking good.

I suspect that the rest of the gap difference will be taken up when you mount the door locks. You may in fact have to shim the striker plate a bit to pull it into the car further. The bottom will contact first which is the way it should be, and with the striker inboard, the door will twist a bit as it locks. The rubber buffer will protect the paint.

Anyway you can play with shimming the striker and use washers on the striker shaft to move it forward/backward in order to get the lock where you need it and fully engaged. That is the last step in getting your doors perfect.

I am surprised though that the strap did not work on your original door skin.
Christopher Couper

Hi Chris,

I think a straining strap might work if the attachment points were close to the metal skin at the bottom and close to the door panel at the top i.e. diagonally in two directions. Tightening could pull the door in but I suspect if would lift it as well. Has anyone tried slackening the wood frame screws before twisting a door?

The lock is the next problem and what a poor design this is. With the lock sandwiching the door card and the striker fitting straight on to the frame, I will have to fit my old cards and use these for setting up. Other, non acceptable, options are to get the car painted, fit the new cards and then set up or fit the new cards, set up and remove the cards for body painting. I don't think using a small packing piece will do since the full sized card tilts the lock slightly. Anyone got advice on this?


Jan T
J Targosz

I think there must have been two people involved in the 'door twist' step. One to twist (probably a bit over what they needed), and another to attach the strap while the first person held the twist. This is just my guess though.

I guess it all depends on the door panel upholstery but I have found the shimming of the lock mechanism, if required, was done under the striker plate. Because my door panels are pretty stout I have a 3/16" shim under one of mine.

From there I used washers on the shaft of the striker bolt to move it back or forward to set it in the correct place in the door lock.

I am not sure what you are referring to with your 'cards'. Perhaps a picture would help me understand.
Christopher Couper

Chris, Not sure exactly what you mean here. Could you elaborate on it a little more. Washers on the shaft? PJ


From there I used washers on the shaft of the striker bolt to move it back or forward to set it in the correct place in the door lock
Paul S Jennings

Hi Chris,

Door cards in the UK refer to the door trim panel - the one which is fitted to the door frame with nails through the "hidem" banding.

Jan T









J Targosz

Jan, I used the piece of my original panels (cards to you) that were the same thickness as the new ones to adjust the locks. If you don't have any old ones, perhaps cut some stout cardboard or something and make shims the same thickness and the new cards would be when compressed. Paul, watch Wheeler Dealers and you will know about "cards!" George
George Butz

The alternative to adding shims under the lock plate is to remove wood from the door pillar with a chisel to acheive the proper fit. It takes time, but the result is a shim free lock set.
David
D. Sander

Paul: When you get everything as best as you can and adjust all the locks and strikers you may find the striker dog too far forward or back. If you take off the dome nut and pull the striker shaft out from the striker plate you have the option of adding/removing very small and thin washers between the head of the dog and and the striker plate. Adding washers forces the striker dog deeper into the lock. It should fill the lock up completely and their should be no gap to the rear of the dog when in the lock.

Note not all cars will need this and if everything else was OK you probably won't need this last step. Its just another arrow in your dock lock quiver.
Christopher Couper

Thanks Chris, great piece of information! PJ
Paul S Jennings

David. I note you suggest removing wood from the door pillar under the striker plate. I think this is what I will have to do. Although my door fit is quite good, even with a thick shim between the door and the door lock I cannot get the door to close on the " second click ". If I shim the door lock anymore the door handle will be too short to reach the lock properly.
If I chisel the wood from under the striker plate how best should I deal with the metal panelling which just overlaps the rear of the door pillar.
Many thanks
Lionel.
L.F. Thorne

You may have to file or cut the sheet metal back a bit for the striker to clear. One has to ask why the door won't fit now. What changed? The door did close correctly at one time. I have had to trim metal and wood on cars that were restored, I have never had to cut metal on an original car before.
D. Sander

lionel, Take some pics of the lock and striker plate area.

Check that the hinges are not binding? ie. closing up before they reach the second lock.

If possible close the door to almost engaging and take an image down from the top
Rod Brayshaw

David and Rod, Thank you for your responses. With your thoughts and the
other comments on this thread I have solved the problem and now have a door that shuts on the "second click".
I have done two things. 1. shaved down the new rubber buffer- it was too thick and obstructing the door. 2. increased the thickness of the rubber shim between the body tub and the chassis at the fixing point nearest the middle of the door.
Thank you all
Lionel.
L.F. Thorne

This thread was discussed between 09/07/2014 and 14/07/2014

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