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MG TD TF 1500 SU Fuel Pump Mounting Questions - TF BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG TD TF 1500 - SU Fuel Pump Mounting Questions - TF
| I'm mounting a new electronic SU fuel pump (AZX1331EN) on the chassis of my TF-1500. The car had a Facet pump when I bought it.
Questions: 1) What type/size screws mount the pump to the mounting braket? 2) What are the "Mount Rubber/Fuel Pump, Pair" Abingdon Spares #119-150? https://abingdonspares.com/products/mount-rubber-fuel-pump-pair 3) What is the "Fuel Pump Sleeve" Abingdon Spares #19-152? Where does it go? https://abingdonspares.com/products/fuel-pump-sleeve-tf 4) Any suggestions for a discrete drain between the tank and the pump? Considering installing one. 5) The flare on one end of my old line from the tank to the pump is damaged. The brass nuts are still good. Will my Harbor Freight Double Tube Flaring Tool Kit make a correct flare for the fittings on a new copper line, or should I buy a ready-made line from Ab Spr / Moss? Similar to this one https://www.harborfreight.com/Double-Tube-Flaring-Tool-Kit-62814.html Any tips on mounting? Thanks, Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| I picked up a stainless TD radiator drain cock from one of the swap meets that I went to some years ago and discovered that it fitted the plug hole in the bottom of the fuel tank. I'd only ever seen brass cocks previously. Maybe that would work as the drain that you're seeking? Still not sure if I'll fit it and will wait until I'm ready to install the tank before I decide. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Nice idea Peter. I have a new radiator brass drain that I haven’t installed yet. And my tank is on the shelf. I’ll check. The drain is a TF radiator drain, so the spout is angled down. A TD drain is straight. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| 1) 1/4" BSF X 1/2"
2) They are used on either side of the mounting plate which bolts to the pump and, in turn, to the car. 3) The sleeve goes around the body to cover the body and cap joint. 4) no suggestion. 5) Harbor freight will not have the correct flaring tool, as the British flare end is different from US or metric flares. However, Vintage Car Parts in the UK has what you need: https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/products/sol-nu-container-solder-type-fitting-nut and https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/products/sol-ni-container-solder-pipe-nipple Be sure to silver solder the flare fitting onto the pipe AFTER putting the nut on the pipe. Soft solder will eventually fracture and leak, so silver solder is best. |
| Lew Palmer |
| Figure B.9 on Page B.8 of the WSM shows how the mounting rubbers go. Jim B. |
| JA Benjamin |
| If you fit a drain cock make sure you wire it open or fit one that will only vibrate down to an open position. Ray TF 2884 |
| Ray Lee |
| Ray I was thinking of using it only when needed to drain the tank or to remove some fuel if I needed to, perhaps to help someone out who'd run out of fuel. The cock would then be permanently closed. I see your point about it vibrating into a different position, though it seems to remain closed when used as intended at the bottom of the radiator. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter, sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were going to put it in the fuel line. As an engineer I always try to fit things in a fail safe condition, you would be amazed at what vibration will do Ray. |
| Ray Lee |
Rubbers are mounted one on top and one on the bottom of the bracket.
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| PJ Jennings |
| Thanks guys. Once again you gave me exactly what I needed to know. Gotta order a few parts. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| On my TF the ground goes to a spade on the pump. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
| Paul - I see that you have two elbows on your pump. The TF Service Parts List diagram (same as Abingdon Spares diagram) shows one on the outlet and none on the inlet. Do I need two or only one? The car has had a Fascet pump ever since I have owned it, so I have no experience plumbing an SU pump in my TF-1500. Thanks, Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Small but important point regarding on/off tap location. My car currently being worked on has one fitted by a previous owner and is located virtually above the exhaust pipe. It has a slight leak!! Something I need to attend to needless to say. |
| JK Mazgaj |
| Lonnie, One 'elbow' on the outlet for TFs. Cheers Rob Grantham |
| Rob Grantham |
| Thanks. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Lonnie I believe later TFs with the chassis mounted pump have two elbows It's important that the pump is mounted with the outlet on top so that the outlet is above the inlet, otherwise you 'can' have uncontroled ticking from the pump caused by an air lock Hunted around for a pic and found this Hope it helps willy 
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| William Revit |
| Thanks Willy, I’ve seen photos and illustrations of TFs with one elbow and with two. Since I bought only one elbow, I’ll mount my new pump with one on the outlet and none on the inlet. It will be months before I finish and mount the tub, so I have plenty of time to add a second elbow if needed. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| My 53 TF has an engine bay mounted fuel pump and I am considering relocating it to its later position at the rear to possibly alleviate fuel vaporisation problem when restarting the engine after a run on hot days. All comments welcomed John PS I realise I’ll need a high pressure pump |
| John Thomas |
| John, both my MGA and my MGB have the pump in the rear and I don't think either of them use a high pressure pump. I hope some of the experts chime in so we'll both know for sure. Jud |
| J. K. Chapin |
| I don't think it's so much a pressure difference it's more that the front mounted pumps are suckers and the rear mounted are blowers
The rear mounted pumps are refered to as High Pressure (3 lb) as they have to pump the fuel to the front--whereas the front mounted (1.5 lb)pumps have to suck fuel from the tank and simply deliver it-----There wouldn't be a whole lot of difference in pressure at the carburettors with either system while at road speed but the correct pump for your pump location is important Found this list for your interest on the Burlen site cheers willy -------------------------------------- 1929 -33 SU Petrolift Pump This pump draws petrol from the tank which is then fed by gravity to the carburetter. Unfortunately there are no units or spares available... yet! 1934 - L Type - L Type introduced Low pressure 1.5 lb/sq inch. Mounted in the engine compartment usually on bulkhead, as such often referred to as a ‘puller pump’. The 6 volt version is part number AUA 26. 12 volt versions are AUA 25 and AUA 66. Double ended versions of the above are AUA 11 and AUA 161. High pressure 3 lb/sq inch. Available as both single and double versions, mounted on the chassis and often known as ‘pusher pumps’. Single types are part numbers AZX 1331 and AZX 1332 and double pumps are part numbers AUA 161 and AUA 8 (the latter being for pre-war Bentleys and Rolls Royce). 1945 - LCS Type LCS large capacity pump introduced. This is a high pressure pump mounted to the chassis and easily recognisable by its ‘square’ shaped body casting. Part numbers are AUA 152 and AUA 157. 1959 - 300/400/500 Series High pressure. This pump type superseded the LCS version and can be used in place of it if necessary. Now referred to as the 1300 series, part numbers are AZX 1307, AZX 1308, AZX 1318 and AZX 1319 although most supersede to 1307 or 1308 now. The 400 series is the double ended version of the above. These are now referred to as the 1400 series, part numbers are AZX 1405, AZX 1410, AZX 1408 and AZX 1416 although most now supersede to AZX 1405. The 500 series is a double ended pump with each end working independently, mainly used as a reserve feature. This is now referred to as the 1500 series, part numbers are AZX 1500 and AZX 1501. Also 1959 - 200 series High pressure compact style pump. A lower capacity pump than the 300/1300 series, as fitted to Minis, Midgets and Sprites. Part number is AUF 214. |
| William Revit |
| Lonnie, I have never seen an original Fuel Pump set up with two(2) elbows ! The photo offered up by William R seems to have an incorrect layout of the fuel lines. The photo by Rick of Ohio on the Thread 'Fuel Pump Picture' instigated by George Butz 111 is the correct way to set the input and output pipe lines. One elbow required. Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177('Athos'). |
| Rob Grantham |
| Rob I must agree, Rick's original pic. is very convincing that one elbow is it- I have seen cars with two but in hindsight maybe not as original as Rick's Lonnie is going to fit his up with one so all good I guess Cheers willy |
| William Revit |
| The pic Mr. Revit shows is actually my chassis showing the pump, but take note, I installed the pump exactally as the original came off the car before rebuilding by Dave D. The car had never been restored and being owned by a doctor it sat for 20+ years in his garage. It had two elbows. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
Found two old pics of the pump when pulling the car apart. PJ
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| PJ Jennings |
Again,
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| PJ Jennings |
| Paul I can't remember where I got that pic. from, I have a heap of chassis pics to try and get my Y sorted--I hope you don't mind me posting the pic of your car then- I guess it's just another MG assembly line thing -- depends how many elbows they had on the day You were lucky and got both-------------- Cheers willy |
| William Revit |
| John wrote "PS I realise I’ll need a high pressure pump" I thought he meant really high pressure such as for a modern fuel injected engine. I confess that I was unaware that there are both 1.5 psi and 3 psi pumps. I thought they were all 3-4 psi. I am now educated and, John, I hope I didn't mislead you or too badly confuse the issue. Jud |
| J. K. Chapin |
| Jud, see http://www.ttalk.info/EmergencyPumpII.htm for a bit about pressure needs. Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| High or low pressure is not a big differential here, 1.5 Vs 2.7 PSI. The late Dave DuBois wrote several articles on the SU pumps. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
| Ok,lets have a look at the detail.
If you refer to Plate A in the Midget Series TF Illustrated List of Service Parts, (Radiator,Chassis Frame,Fuel Supply,Suspension and Exhaust Components) the one(1) elbow is clearly depicted on the outlet fuel only. This also is the case depicted for the early TFs where the fuel pump was mounted on the bulkhead area. B7 (The Fuel System) in the Series TD and Series TF Workshop Manual, a sketch also depicts the outlet fuel line only having one(1) elbow. Our cars are approx. 60 to 70 years old now. Fuel pumps have been replaced quite a few times on our cars. Notoriously mechanics would add an elbow when the pump was replaced as it was far easier to pull the copper fuel line (input) away from the chassis rail area to re work and/or replace the pump ! What seems 'original' often is not ! Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis),TF9177("Athos"). |
| Rob Grantham |
| William, Use the pic as you wish, if I put some pics on the net, their for anyone to use or hopefully benefit from. Hard to count how many pics other fellows have posted that helped me put my TF back together and appreciate their willingnes to post them. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| Rob, This car, before I got it, was only ever worked on by dealer type mechanics. The doctor who owned it was meticulous about proper maintenance and took it to a dealer even for an oil change. His brother wrecked it and it sat in his garage for many years, like 20 or 30? So I would assume the pump was changed at least once in it's (active) life and the second elbow might have poped up during that period. But it's going to stay where it's at! LOL! PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| Thanks Bud. Fascinating. I suppose a can of compressed air such as used to clean computer keyboards could also be adapted to be an emergency fuel pump. Or a bicycle pump and a willing passenger? Jud |
| J. K. Chapin |
| when did the fuel pumps start carrying the red tape to designate positive ground? |
| Rick |
| Rick, I am not sure about the red tape designate,however I am sure that early High Pressure (long bodied) Fuel Pumps on early TFs were originally fitted with red caps i.e. not black. Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| Rob Grantham |
| At least some were supplied with red caps. Discussed this with Dave Dubois after we found a factory photo of a original chassis with pump fitted. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| I don't know about the colour of the caps, but the red tape means that it has a diode as an arc suppressor and it was polarity sensitive. In this case positive ground, black tape indicates that it is negative ground. John |
| J Scragg |
This thread was discussed between 04/05/2019 and 11/05/2019
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