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MG TD TF 1500 - Survivor - Probably Not

I know there was a recent thread about what should be considered a surviver and I'm pretty darned sure my '53 TD is not one but I'm wondering -

Here are the criteria established for a show coming up on Saturday - I think they're pretty good:
EURO Auto Festival 2013
Greetings:

In an effort to reduce the number of car owners who checked the "preservation box" to a reasonable number I am prepared to suggest the following guidelines:

To be considered a car must be at least 30 years old ( 1983 or earlier )

To be considered a car must not have been repainted during its life time and have the original paint it left the factory with.

To be considered a car must not have had its upholstery replaced during its life time and must have the original upholstery it left the factory with.

To be considered a car must have the original exterior and interior trim it left the factory with when it was new.

To be considered a car must have the original engine it left the factory with.

To be considered a car must have the original instrumentation it left the factory with.

To be considered the car must show mileage which supports the fact that it has been driven regularly. We would like the odometers to read 150,000 miles or more.

In summary a car should be at least 90% original or more. Allowance is made for touch up work due to minor damage or repairs which were necessary to protect the integrity of the vehicle. No deductions will be made for safety modifications such as seat belts or turn signals.

Anyway, on to the question: I can usually pretty easily spot a repaint job but whoever did the paint on mine back in the early '70s did a darned good job and I can't find evidence that it is a repaint. If you were looking, where would you look?

Thanks.

Jud
J K Chapin

I agree with most of your post. However, as our T-series are 60 - 77 years old, (I have a 1936 TA and a 1952 TD) most would not qualify for a preservation class. Most have mechanical components (engines, trans, steering etc) that have been rebuilt or replaced with original type components. I feel that any car should have the original type engine. A TC/TD should have an XPAG engine and MG 4 speed, a Model A Ford should have a Model A engine with a Ford 3 speed etc. These cars were not designed to last 60-70-80 years. The more original parts the better, but a T-series with an MGA, Datsun or Volvo engine, or a 5 speed transmision should not qualify at all. It was common practice in the 30's and 40's to replace a worn out original engine with a salvage yard special. To get 30,000 or more miles before a rebuild was rare.

As to your paint question, I would look under the dashboard, inside the doors, and under the trim behind the seats. Unless the car was disassembled for painting, your should find evidence of color difference or masking lines.

John Masters

I agree with every thing you said except I'd call a car with a replaced engine, tranny, whatever, totally stock instead of original or preserved. Guess it's mostly semantics. As was expressed in the earlier thread, I guess "kept in a glass box" is the only way it's "original" but no major fixes does put it in a special, albeit perhaps undefinable, class.

Thanks for the suggestions on where to look for evidence of a repaint job.

Jud
J K Chapin

On a T car (IMHO) first place I would look as far as paint would be under the vin tags. Yes it is only 4 screws...but I have been amazed how many I have seen that were taped instead of removed for a re-paint.

Under the cowl, inside doors, ...like John said.
David Sheward

"We would like the odometers to read 150,000 miles or more." Mileage has no bearing whatsoever on a car's originality or the fact that the rest of the stuff survived. That would mean the Impala 409 with like 50 miles on it a couple years ago was not a survivor. Stupid! Just my thoughts. George
George Butz

I also wondered about the "read 150,000 miles". On cars older than 30 years quite a few do not have a "100k" digit on the odometer. "Driven regularly"? Sorry, but that means all those Nebraska Chevy's that went on the block recently with under 10 miles don't make the cut either?
David Sheward

I think I'd do away with the mileage requirement. I could apply those guidelines to several of my motorcycles and they all would pass, except they were fairly low miles original examples.

Also, the paint issue. Obviously you would allow touchup in areas, so how much is too much?? ie a lot of the black undercarriage might be touched up but body original, is that ok or not??

L Rutt

Beyond the engine durability (which can probably be achieved with good maintenance and regular overhaul - and how different is that from a paint job...) I'd like to question how one would drive 150k miles without fixing the upholstery or having springs stick in your butt..
Mike Fritsch

The mileage "requirement" is quite random.

A fellow who has joined our club here in Austin, Texas is the owner of an Arnolt MGTD. This was a variant with a Bertone body commissioned by American businessman "Wacky" Arnolt who thought there would be a market for them in the US.

A total of 102 of these were made between the drophead and coupé versions.

The car in question was Mr. Arnolt's own car, the one that was exhibited at the Detroit Auto Show. It has the Lucite plaque that identified the car at the show. It's all original save for tires and brake lines. Everything else is as it came from manufacture.

The odometer falls far short of 150,000 miles. It would be interesting to hear anyone argue that this particular car is not a "survivor." It isn't just an Arnolt, it's THE Arnolt.

To each his own, but it appears that what the folks running the show in the original post are after is cars that are original and see frequent use.

They're looking for some 5,000 miles per year of use assuming that it's 150,000 miles on a 30 year old car.
My TD sees use a couple of weekends per month and has yet to get more than 2,000 miles in any one year.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

TF 6688 OUR 1954 MEETS ALL OF THOSE REQUIREMENTS EXCEPT THE 150,000 MILES STANDARD........FOR 24 YRS OUR CAR WAS STORED AWAY IN A HEATED AND A/C BUILDING AND NOT DRIVEN, SO IT HAS 44,976 MILES ON THE ODOMETER.THIS IS A TRUE SURVIVOR.
colin stafford

My 1951 MGTD I consider is an original car. The car has received 2 AACA HOPF's. the only thing that has been done is the seal upholstery (not door panels and dash oil cloth) , carpet, was replaced by the 2nd owner, I replaced the top and side curtain material because it was needed as I drive the car. Information from previous owners has been provided. The car has 45,098 original miles. The seat leather was replaced because the car has been driven.
A good judge can tell wether the car has been repainted. I have seen many antique cars built in the 20's that were restored In the 50's and 60's that try to say they are original. You can't get to picky. My feeling on an original car is that it has not been taken totally apart.

Cheers, David....
David Honness

This thread was discussed between 15/10/2013 and 26/10/2013

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