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MG TD TF 1500 - TD Windscreen Top Rail Screws

The holes in the top rail are used to attach the wiper, the idler & perhaps as many as four clips that secure the visible wiper cable. In 1969 my TD came with two chrome plated MS cable clips which I still have & am replacing with bespoke clips in 0.9 mm SS. Question is can anyone ID the original machine screws that secured these clips, eg length, size, type etc as well as the quantity (2 or 4)? I'd like to fill all the holes in the universal (RHD/LHD) top rail & to achieve this I believe I'd need four clips (the additional 2 @ the idler) & the appropriate screws, washers & nuts. They are probably raised head, countersunk, 2BA Phillips, certainly on later TD's, or perhaps even slotheads on early TD's. TYIA. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

If you are talking about the screws that go through the frame from front to rear, pretty sure they are a 2BA, Phillips, rounded head but not countersunk machine screw, with flat washer and nut on the inside (not sure about a lock washer- maybe?). My early LHD TD does not have the wire/clips so not sure about that. I think there are two on each side of the idler and two in the middle. George
George Butz

Thanks George. I'd thought maybe raised head c/s to match the other visible windscreen screws. Anyone with an original RHD early TD able to answer this one? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Zoom in on this picture. It shows the wire routing without clips to the takeout point (the same as LHD cars) and then going along with two clips? to the wiper motor. Not sure if this is original or not because I have never looked close at an early RHD car.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/MG_TD_-_Flickr_-_exfordy_%284%29.jpg
Christopher Couper

Thanks Chris. Zoomed in but still unclear. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

My 1950 RHD has a total of four round head 2BA screws, three with cable clips (ie excluding the one on the idler close to where the cable emerges from inside the top rail). The screw holes were not countersunk.

Tim (TD1580)
Tim Wilkinson

Thanks Tim. Round head not raised head? Also as you have an early car were they Phillips or slots? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

They're slotted Peter. Interestingly, the screws holding the windscreen brackets to the cowl were also slotted on my car, although the dash woodscrews were cross-headed. I'm not sure when these changed.

Tim
Tim Wilkinson

Slotted were used on TC's, have never seen on a TD. Possible if very early car? George
George Butz

Getting closer. Had a reply off line which suggests the screws were round head. Doug Pelton confirms slots on TC's but professes no knowledge re TD's. I knew about the dash & windscreen bracket screws being slots on the early TD's which made me wonder about the top rail fixings. No idea of the changeover date but if a decision was made to eliminate slots it seems logical they would all have been changed at about the same time (after using up existing stock), which makes a firm use by/cut off date improbable. The Phillips head is of course much more user friendly.

The 2 holes left & right of the idler on my RHD TD, with a passenger mounted wiper, may or may not have carried clips. Yet to hear from a RHD early TD one owner who can confirm this. I have made 4 clips in total & fitted 2 of them guiding the cable under the idler. Looks neat & seems logical. The cable won't fit over the idler & would probably be rubbed by the idler in operation if routed that way, before it disappears into the top rail. Thanks Joe, Tim, George & Chris for your input. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I am still looking for a good picture here. Seems that the cable should come out of the frame inboard of the idler and then be secured by just the center two screws with clips. I cannot get my head around where the 3rd clip would be.

This assumes that the top frames are all the same and the exit hole is inboard (left) of the left idler hole.
Christopher Couper

Chris the following pics show the location of the 4 clips that I've used. The two in the centre are beyond question however the clips either side of the idler are what I'm querying. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Pic 2

P Hehir

It's a small detail but IMO your extra clip is not really needed as the cable is well located anyway at that point and it makes the cable routing look awkward. Better to let the wiper cable hug the idler from where it can be held in a more unobtrusive straight line by the three subsequent clips. That's the way my car is and I imagine is how the factory would have done it. What we pay for having a windscreen arranged for LHD cars!

Tim (TD1580)
Tim Wilkinson

Tim you mean the one on the right of the 2nd pic is not required? Makes sense. If so I'll delete it.

I also need to remake the clip on the left so the cable stays inside the line of the frame. As my windscreen frame had been hit at some time in its past I've had to straighten it & also have the new glass cut to size & checked out to clear the corners, wiper motor, idler mounts & the internal cable. I've assembled the frame without the glass to ensure all screws are clear. The "one size fits all" glass available here doesn't fit all that well. While this OZ glass does carry the correct laminated TRIPLEX logo, they are all dated 1960! Hoping to have the second logo manufacturer produce the correct set of 16 stencils which include the years 49 to 53 with the quarterly dot above the word TRIPLEX. The font used in the first batch of stainless stencils was too fine. They looked great but were unusable! Seems early TD's had the cable clips secured with round slot heads so I'll order some in stainless from Classic Fasteners in SA. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I had to go out to look at my car because I thought the outlet was on the inside of the wiper/idler. I see from the pics its on the outside.

Clearly this windshield frame was made for the LHD market.

Here is a picture of my screws which are sort of round headed/pan combo. More round than pan but not totally round headed.



Christopher Couper

These are all raised head countersunk. The larger slot heads are from the windscreen brackets to cowl & the other two are both Phillips for the frame assembly. The top one is stainless from Classic Fasteners & is UNF while the other is nickel plated brass 2 BA from the Sportsparts windscreen frame assembly kit. UNF & BA are very close & can (well almost) be interchanged. It seems then the options for the clip fasteners are round head, pan head, raised head or something like the ones in Chris's pic... This is doing my head in! Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Peter: Those are good for the side brackets but the top used the round/pan ones like my picture.

And on the top corners where it fits into your L angle brackets those were flat.

Be really careful your screws don't go past the threaded portion more than about 1/16" or you will chip your glass and probably cause it to crack.


Christopher Couper

I've ensured the screws don't protrude beyond the corner angles or the internal side mounts & am aware of the flat countersunk (Phillips in the kit) screws for the corners. The question still remains are the clip fixings round, raised, domed, mushroom, pan heads etc ... & were they slot heads on early TD's? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Chris's shot of his round/pan head screws are positively original that I have seen on several unrestored TD's and TF's, including my own. There is no question about this, however always possible slotted used on very early TD if some leftovers? George
George Butz

I'll send Chris's pic to Classic Fasteners & see if they can provide them in both Phillips & slot in the "round/pan heads". I'm able to assemble the screen with the glass now & I'll add either the slot or Phillips clip fixings later. Thanks to all for your input. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Another interesting tidbit for you Peter. The flat headed machine screws that were hidden, like under the side bracket, were slotted while those that could be seen where oval and Philips. Go figure.
Christopher Couper

Yeah Chris. It seems the more I learn the less I know! I picked up 3 boxes of brass slot head 2 BA machine screws 1/4", 3/8" & 5/8" @ $5 ea a while back which have proven very useful where the screws are hidden. I've been able to save the unused plated screws from the kit as spares. I've linished these brass slot head screws to the various desired lengths to ensure I avoid the glass. I can't use the windscreen rubber simply because it's way too tight in most areas, so I'm going with black windscreen sealant which when dry will look like rubber, without any risk of breaking the glass. You can see the plastic packers I'm using in one of my pics above, which will ensure a uniform gap between the glass & the frame. I'll push these into the frame before I apply the goop. When I finish playing with the windscreen I'll post a couple of pics. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Found this pic in the archive from George Butz & if I could find some of these I'd be happy. Also posting a pic from Huib showing his windscreen with the same 8 holes as mine. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Huib's windscreen

P Hehir

Peter: I think that is common. Its the other side where there seems to be some debate. ie where the exit hole is for the ww wire. Are they all on the right side of the car just outboard of hole #1?
Christopher Couper

I would also be curious how many cars have both a flat washer and a lock washer. My late 1952 only seems to have lock washers.
Christopher Couper

Dunno Chris. Jack Emdall's cable doesn't emerge until adjacent to the motor on the side closest to the door. Rob Browne's TD 0267 top rail is the same as Jack's & only has 4 through holes, (3 for the motor & 1 for the idler). So there is Huib's & my top rail with 8 holes & Rob & Jack's top rail with 4. Go figure?.. This of course excludes the later rail with the centre mounted wiper. More research needed here. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I took my windscreen apart last night as it's off for re-chroming today.
Top rail has 8 holes 4 appear redundant.

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Picked up some 1" stainless, pan head, Phillips screws in 3/16" W for the 2 wiring clips & the 2 unused holes left & right of the idler. These came from Tower Fasteners in Marrickville here in Sydney. Also used a stainless spring washer & nut. Looks great. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This thread was discussed between 26/02/2015 and 06/03/2015

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