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MG TD TF 1500 - TF and TD Production Line Painting

I had a look at the TF production records for another thread, and thought it might be useful to post this info, which may not have been noted before.

Individual TDs original paint colors cannot be identified, because the factory records were destroyed when the factory was expanded for greater MGB production. Nowhere on the car's stamped information is there a paint code.

TF colors can be identified by the color codes (HDP, for instance, ivory; HPE, green), recorded both in the production records and on the Guarantee plate of each individual car. But I can document with the production records that TF's were produced on the assembly line in batches of cars, all painted the same color. So on Wednesday, April 13, 1954, for instance, the first 25 cars produced by serial number were ALL HDE (green) cars (continuing the end of the previous day's run of 14 green cars), as well as 15 HDP cars (ivory). The work day (Friday, April 15), the first 15 cars produced continued that ivory run, before switching over to grey, then black.

It is always possible that TDs were similarly produced, but it is not possible to prove this from the production records. Perhaps if enough sequentially-numbered TDs were considered as groups it might be interesting, but not certain - since, I think it safe to say, MOST TDs have been re-painted.

Logic tells me that the assembly line for TFs wold probably continue the procedures for TDs, but this cannot be proven. It would surprise me if TDs were produced in a different manner, frankly.

I'm always happy to help with production-related questions.


Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

That's really interesting Tom. At the Factory, did they produce cars on the assembly line with the serial numbers in exact sequence or does it random a little bit?

Frank
Frank Cronin

Thanks Tom, very interesting! Good question Frank! It's been found that engine numbers don't follow a specific path. I was told that if one wasn't quite right, they just pulled the car off the line, grabbed another engine off the rack and installed it, meaning if the one pulled off the line was built on the 16th it could have an engine with a number higher than one built on the 17th. Not sure if that's correct, but it makes sense. PJ
Paul S Jennings

My TD (TD10855), built on Oct 9, 1951 was originally Autumn Red. TD/C10890, Built on Oct. 11, 1951, owned by Stu Keen, was also Autumn Red. Bud
Bud Krueger

My TD #10835 was also built Oct. 9th, and was originally black. George
George Butz

Frank - I have no way of knowing that, and perhaps only an employee would be able to tell you that. The Production Records list cars by serial numbers in sequence, with the date info. and engine numbers in separate columns. For the TF (I confess I have not studied every page - yet!), the Production Record numbers seem quite consistent - on April 15th, 1954, for instance, they made (only!) 39 cars: the first listed is TF4867, the last is TF4906, after which the next production day's cars begin, with TF4907. For TDs, the sequencing is less consistent, with some serial numbers out of sequence, but in date order.

Frank - Engine numbers were supplied to both TD and TF production in no obvious order, although sometimes clumps of numbers are nearby each other. To pick April 15th, 1954 as a typical day, here are the serial and engine numbers for that day's production, ranging from a low engine number of 33094 to a high of 34959, with a range of 1865 serial numbers fitted into only 39 cars:

TF4867 HDP 36/4867 540415 XPAG/TF/34959
TF4868 HDP 36/4868 540415 XPAG/TF/34956
TF4869 HDP 36/4869 540415 XPAG/TF/34952
TF4870 HDP 46/4870 540415 XPAG/TF/34954
TF4871 HDP 46/4871 540415 XPAG/TF/34945
TF4872 HDP 36/4872 540415 XPAG/TF/34504
TF4873 HDP 36/4873 540415 XPAG/TF/34530
TF4874 HDP 16/4874 540415 XPAG/TF/34531
TF4875 HDP 16/4875 540415 XPAG/TF/34532
TF4876 HDP 16/4876 540415 XPAG/TF/34533
TF4877 HDP 16/4877 540415 XPAG/TF/34536
TF4878 HDP 16/4878 540415 XPAG/TF/34535
TF4879 HDP 16/4879 540415 XPAG/TF/34537
TF4880 HDP 16/4880 540415 XPAG/TF/34554
TF4881 HDP 16/4881 540415 XPAG/TF/34553
TF4882 HDB 26/4882 540415 XPAG/TF/34487
TF4883 HDB 26/4883 540415 XPAG/TF/33094
TF4884 HDB 26/4884 540415 XPAG/TF/33892
TF4885 HDB 26/4885 540415 XPAG/TF/34371
TF4886 HDP 26/4886 540415 XPAG/TF/34501
TF4887 HDP 26/4887 540415 XPAG/TF/34556
TF4888 HDP 36/4888 540415 XPAG/TF/34557
TF4889 HDP 46/4889 540415 XPAG/TF/34555
TF4890 HDP 46/4890 540415 XPAG/TF/34493
TF4891 HDP 46/4891 540415 XPAG/TF/34542
TF4892 HDB 36/4892 540415 XPAG/TF/33734
TF4893 HDB 36/4893 540415 XPAG/TF/34423
TF4894 HDB 46/4894 540415 XPAG/TF/34433
TF4895 HDB 46/4895 540415 XPAG/TF/34513
TF4896 HDB 46/4896 540415 XPAG/TF/34527
TF4897 HDB 46/4897 540415 XPAG/TF/34520
TF4898 HDB 46/4898 540415 XPAG/TF/34511
TF4899 HDB 46/4899 540415 XPAG/TF/34515
TF4900 HDB 26/4900 540415 XPAG/TF/34077
TF4901 HDB 16/4901 540415 XPAG/TF/34569
TF4902 HDB 16/4902 540415 XPAG/TF/34584
TF4903 HDB 16/4903 540415 XPAG/TF/34574
TF4904 HDA 16/4904 540415 XPAG/TF/34581
TF4905 HDA 26/4905 540415 XPAG/TF/34571
TF4906 HDA 26/4906 540415 XPAG/TF/34559

The production records are helpful in showing that and when (defective) engines were removed from cars and replaced; this process took place after test-driving. The original engine number is crossed out on the production records, and a new number is given, with "
Engine Change", usually carried out between 2 and 10 days after the car's completion.

One owner had owned his TD for long enough that he was confident it was the original engine, but the numbers on the Guarantee plate and the engine did NOT match. The production records showed that his defective engine had been replaced, but the Guarantee plate had not been changed. The "replacement" engine was the correct one, much to his delight.

Again, I'm happy to help with any Production Record information.


Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

I am by no means an expert on this, but it was always my impression that there was a guy at the end of the line stamping and afixing the builders plate, as a "last step" so to speak.
Cars were pulled from the line for rework and corrections, yet it looks like they left the line in sequence.
Thoughts?
-David
D. Sander

I am pretty sure cars early on up to mid 1952 were built on order for the most part. They went out pretty quick and the dealers either had customer orders or selected what colors they wanted to stock. I have seen statements that the whole process was real slow because of all the layers (dealer, distributor, importer, factory, production) that orders had to be handed off on to get a car. I am not sure how much the factory primed the process so to speak until late 1952 as sales started to slack off.

Also since most of them where red, then green or black and the other colors following up in much smaller numbers, it may be hard to find some pattern.

If a customer wanted a silver or ivory one for example, would they have to wait an extra week or month to fit into the color schedule? Not sure.

I would think the factory probably took what was on order and batched those colors and added a few extra in. So it might fit your sequential model a bit.

Have you scanned all the factory pictures and videos to see if the same shade is on the line? Again being most cars were red this may not be a good test.

But to support your theory the few cars I do have production info are:

1384 black/bge
1368 red/red
1369 red/red

19626 red/red
19629 red/red
19646 red/red
19647 red/red
19726 black/red
19727 black/red
Chris Couper

Were any TFs autumn Red from the factory?
Paul S Jennings

Dave - My guess is that cars were pulled from the line for re-work or correction only after the test drive; removing them from the line would have made too many problems.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Barrie Jones, the TF Registrar, recently told me that TF bodies were painted by Carbodies, the body manufacturer, and shipped to Abingdon in batches of the same color, so it makes sense that they were assembled in the same order. The engines appear to be chosen randomly and were probably just pulled from stores on a "closest to the door" basis. I can't speak to TDs but it seems reasonable to assume the same.
Jack Long

Hi Tom, it's interesting that you picked April 15th as a 'typical day', my car TF 4887 is one of them. Delivered to Australia with I believe 12 others. It is still (repainted) Ivory with red trim.
Don Sth. Oz TF 4887
DJ Walker

Don - please send me your e-mail.

Thanks. Tom
t lange

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, the only colour info retained by the factory was in the colour code for TF's. "C"=Red.
I have seen Sydney import records which show the exterior and interior colours (in batches, as already discussed here) and they only give "Red" too.

Engine numbers simply got out of order between the Morris Engines plant and Abingdon. Too much unnecessary effort to get them back in order.

Tom, are there many replacement engines showing up on the records? (particularly TF?) .

Matthew.
M Magilton

Matthew - less that TD engines, ie not terribly many.

Tom
t lange

This thread was discussed between 03/02/2014 and 04/02/2014

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