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MG TD TF 1500 - TF production sequence

You long-time TF owners probably already know this info. I'm a newbee so it's "new and neat" to me.

From July to Sept 1954, TF-1250s and TF-1500s were produced side-by-side. The chassis numbers ran consecutively regardless of engine size. It seems that this would make determining the production sequence of each model impossible.

According to Anders Ditley Clausager in "Original MG T Series", TF-1500 models were produced in batches:
> Chassis #6501 - 6650 (150 cars)
> Chassis #6751 - 6850 (100 cars)
> Chassis #6951 - 10100 (3,150 cars)

A little math shows that my TF-1500 #7211 was the 511th TF-1500 produced. The first production TF number was #501, so TF-1250 sequence can also be computed.

Just a newbee falling deeper and deeper into the crevasse of MG trivia.

Lonnie
TF7211

[image] windshield sign for car shows

LM Cook

According to production records the first TF1500 #6501 had engine XPEG 507. If XPEG engines were sequential, your car was the 470th built. Trivia is fun! John
JR Mahone

Hi John - I don't think you can assume that MG was able to manage production so that they were able to fit sequentially numbered engines to a production line of sequentially numbered chassis - especially since the engines being fitted were of two different capacities.

I have read that some engines would be pulled from production inventory for one issue or another - they would also be producing spare engines as well - concurrently with the production line needs. Also, the engines were built up in an entirely different factory - I just can't see them being able to have a strict sequential link between engine and chassis.

I imagine that, in general, an engine could be found to fall within a certain anticipated range of chassis numbers - but I would seriously doubt a rigid match over the production run.

Tom Lange has a copy of the production records - he may be able to add his findings from those logs.

Tom - we really need to scan those logs and get them online so that they can be accessed by a broad audience - could we help having those scanned in and hosted on a webpage? Just a suggestion.

DLD

I agree that it does not appear that MG took engines in the same sequence as car numbers. I suspect the engines were stored off the line and brought up in batches, and that the men moving them did not pay attention to what order they went to the line. That is why car number and engine number were both hand recorded in a ledger book at the end of the production line. My TF is #7157 and has engine XPEG 993 which lends credence to my theory.
Jack Long

See this archived thread, also: TF and TD Production Line Painting

TF cars went down the line in batches by color; engines were random. Sorry to be stupid, but I am not sure what Lonnie's comment "this would make determining the production sequence of each model impossible" means.

I agree that it would be a good thing to publish the actual production records sheets, but there are both politics and practicality in play. Technically the records belong to the MG Car Club (I believe), and they are concerned with retaining control of them. We have looked into this.

Also, my Production Record sheets are from an old microfilm with a good number of filming errors - pages omitted, cropped or faint/illegible, etc. A lot of work would be necessary to properly verify the unclear records.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange


My car is 8353, engine 654. TF8355 engine number comes up as 15GP-U-H-34615. Does this number seem to be correct? Way off from my 3 number 654. PJ
Paul161

Tom -

I meant that looking only at the chassis number, I couldn't tell how many TF-1500s were built before mine. For instance, according to Chausager, the 150th TF-1500 produced was chassis #6650. But the 151st produced was #6751. The chassis number was 100 higher than the 150th produced because 100 TFs with 1250 engines were produced between the 150th and the 151st TF-1500.

Am I interpreting the info correctly?

Lonnie
TF1500
LM Cook

PJ

Engine number 15GP-U-H-34615 is a B-Series engine, which must have been fitted later in the car's life.

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

Tom,
How much of the following can you verify about my 1954 TF 1250, and if it is incorrect, please tell me what you can?
Body No. 11370
Car No. HDC 46/1891
Original Engine No. XPAG/TF/31613
Current Engine No. 20670 (from car no. TD/C20330)
Engine Head No. Laystall-Lucas 185/22-10-53

Thanks.
Frank Bice

Paul, according to the T register production records TF 8355 has engine XPEG 533.
Regards Don TF 4887 (getting closer to being finished Paul)
D J Walker

Don, Do we have any photos lately? PJ
Paul161

Paul, since this photo I have installed the dash and wiring and some of the rear inside trim. This is the 'shed' I did my painting and assembling. I will post more photos later.
Regards, Don TF 4887

D J Walker


Lonnie - The Production Records list cars by chassis number (logic prevails), but they were not BUILT in that order - each car is given a build date.

So, for instance, among early XPEG cars:

6501 through 6533 were built on 22 July '54
6534-5 were built on Aug. 12
6536 through 6539 were built on Aug. 20
6540 through 6549 were built on Aug. 16
6550 through 6564 were built on JUNE 18 (note date)
6565 was built on 22 July
6566 through 6576 were built on Aug. 18
6577 through 6581 were built on Aug. 20
6582 through 6597 were built on Aug. 18
6598 through 6629 were built on Aug. 20
6630 through 6763 were built on Aug 24
6764 through 6769 were built on Aug. 26

See? And so on.

For 1250's:
6851-6950 were built from Aug. 28, '54 through Sept 20.
6951 seems to be the last 1250

So your car, TF7211, was built on 28 Sept., but the next batch of numbers, 7214 through 7252 were built the day BEFORE your car, on the 27th!

So if you really needed me to I suppose I could count the cars for you, but it's an academic exercise...

All Production Record questions cheerfully answered.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange


Tom,
How much of the following can you verify about my 1954 TF 1250, and if it is incorrect, please tell me what you can?
Body No. 11370
Car No. HDC 46/1891
Original Engine No. XPAG/TF/31613
Current Engine No. 20670 (from car no. TD/C20330)
Engine Head No. Laystall-Lucas 185/22-10-53

Thanks.
Frank Bice

Thanks Tom -

I love this kind of obscure trivia. I shoulda known that my method to calculate the production sequence was too easy! I don't really need to know, just looking for a conversation starter at shows. But now, trying to explain the actual sequence of the car is just too complicated. Guess I'll rewrite the sign.

Thanks for your help and education.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Frank - as mentioned before, the Production Records are useful, but very limited. I can verify that your car HDC46/1891 was made on December 18, 1953, with engine XPAG/TF/31613.

All the individual car information beyond that was destroyed, I am told, when the factory expanded MGB production, and the old paperwork was considered junk - these were not really collectible cars, just old ones at that time.

For TFs the Production Records are useful for verifying chassis and engine numbers, and identifying which car came with a particular engine. Also, the Production Records list when an engine change was carried out and removed after testing in the car, due to a fault; both the original and replacement numbers are listed (this information was not entered into the on-line database).

It's also useful for showing things like that 8 of the first 24 XPEG engines needed to be exchanged for some reason or another. Whether or not this points to a mechanical problem with early XPEG engines (as someone once suggested) is unclear, as all went well thereafter - if there were a consistent mechanical problem in these early engines, it would surely have shown itself in more than 8 engines!

The original, low-number engines were re-installed in a batch of cars produced 5 months later, on 16 and 17 December, 1954 - it's one of those odd anomalies to see engine XPEG501, the lowest-number XPEG engine, in car TF8362, when engine XPEG503 was in car 6504, the fourth XPEG-engined TF!

Lots of questions, few answers - I'm trying to figure out, based on cars and engine numbers, how many engines came out of supply in one batch all together, but am struggling because I appear to not only have no background in statistics, but not be able to think logically!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

This thread was discussed between 29/10/2015 and 01/11/2015

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