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MG TD TF 1500 - The lowest number TF & 1500 TF
| What is the lowest number TF? What date was it made. Also, what is the lowest number TF 1500 and when was it made? My 1500, # 8353, built in Dec. 54 seems to have a high number. Just a curiosity seeker. PJ |
| Paul S Jennings |
| By the time I find the book ...somebody will have it posted! LOL TF1500 #7427 was October 11/12 1954 build though. |
| David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427 |
| According to my production records, TF0250 was "Built in Development Prototype TF" with engine XPAG/TD3/26849, (a Mark II TD engine), built Aug. 12, 1953. TF0251, with engine XPAG/TD2/29748, built the same day, is marked "Development". The next one, TF501, with engine XPAG/TF/160352 (!), marks the beginning of true TF production, on 17 September, 1953, but the next car seems to have a more "normal" engine number: TF502, engine XPAG/TF/30309, on the same day (one of 27 cars built that day). Interesting, although the first two cars mentioned begin their serial numbers as 0250 and 0251, the next car and ALL other TF's omit the 0, and are listed as just plain 501 (unlike the on-line database, which has added 0's to all those numbers. The last TF I have listed is TF10100, engine XPEG/3771, produced on 4 April 1955. I'm happy to answer any production record questions - it will be interesting to see if the published info agrees! Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Thanks Tom, I'm going to save this page in my TF folder. Very interesting how some numbers were changed. Be interesting to know why they did the system that way. That would be asking too much. Thanks again. PJ |
| Paul S Jennings |
| Paul, My TF 8381 was built shortly after yours. David |
| D. Sander |
| 251 is the traditional Abingdon starting point, taken from their phone/cable number. I read somewhere that 501 is the usual Austin starting point, thus reflecting the Nuffield-Austin merger to form BMC. The last TF (the last T type) was last heard of in France. I swapped emails with one of the previous French owners. Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| Dave, Not that many cars apart! Matthew, That's very interesting about the last T series car. Do we know if the car still exists, where is it and what would be the number? If at all possible,who is the present owner? Hmmm, might be a left hand drive. Doesn't France drive on the right like we do in the States? Sorry Matthew, seems like you might have started something! Grin. PJ |
| Paul S Jennings |
| I recall reading that TF 0250, the first TF prototype, was later rebuilt to be the prototype TF1500. I don't know if they renumbered it when that happened. |
| Jack Long |
| The last TF, TF10100 was a green RHD so I do not know why it went to France. The previous owner I contacted had the car from 1964 to 1988 but he did not know who owned it now. I believe it is still in France. Of the last 10 TF's, at least seven came to Australia. Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| Matthew, we restored TF10085 many years ago, I recall it had a Holden engine and left Australia like that. It was Green. |
| Rod Brayshaw |
| Jack - The first car with an XPEG, as far as I can tell, was TF6501, made on July 22, 1954, with engine XPEG/507. It seems unlikely that an earlier prototype car would be re-numbered and re-engined; it would make much more sense to just pick a new car for the new engine. But who knows, with prototypes! The above is what the factory production records show; that's all I have to go on. And, as I think about it, who knows the ACTUAL order cars came off the line? Just because the Production Records are listed by serial numbers, and (in this case) 33 cars were made the same day, does that mean that the lowest serial number was LITERALLY the first car to roll off the line? I just don't know. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Tom, It is interesting that the first XPEG TF had engine number 507 sine it is my undertanding that the TF is the only BMC product fitted with the XPEG engine. Did they start engine numbers with 501 as well? That would allow for a half dozen prototypes. Jack |
| Jack Long |
| I remember a few years ago reading an artical called FIRST AND LAST TF. It talked about a person looking at two derelict TF's . One was 0250 and the other on was 0251. One of those had remained at the factory until the end of TF production. He apparently purchased 0250? that appeared to be the worst off of the two. I have not heard anything since. Is there anything further? Sandy |
| ss sanders |
| The "G" in XPAG and XPEG stands for MG so these engines only ever went into MG's. Wolesley had XPAW engines, the W referring of course to Wolseley. I believe the Engine type was sold to specialist builders like Lotus (not sure if indeed Lotus bought them, others will know) and don't know what prefixes they were stamped with. |
| Max Irvine |
| For those who happen to have the 1989 edition of the T Register Yearbook (MGCC UK) there is a good little feature called "The First TF" by Peter Best who owned/owns TF0250 (EX177), accompanied with some nice photos. This car also received an XPEG engine but it is not clear from the article if 0250 was also the 1500 prototype. Rod, thank you for the info. Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| I first saw the first TF1500, TF6501, in Portland, Oregon, when it was for sale at an All British Field meet back in the 1980s. It still had its original XPEG engine. The owner/dealer didn't know the significance of the car's number nor was he receptive when I mentioned the car was originally green. He said it had always been red and all original. Also, I believe that TF may have come with disc wheels as the wire wheel conversion came from a MG-A, complete with the A rear end. Many years later I found out this TF may have been sold new in the Los Angeles area with two resales by a BMC dealer in Duarte still in the '50s. |
| Michael Walsh |
| Jack - that highlights my quandary about production and production records. The production records are arranged by chassis number, and the engines were supplied in a random order. I can find no XPEG 500, so I am confident they started with 501. Looked at from the engine point of view: XPEG/501 was put in TF 8632 XPEG/502 in TF 8476 XPEG5/03 in TF 6504 XPEG/504 in TF 6509 XPEG/505 in TF 6515 XPEG/506 in TF 8379 XPEG/507 in TF 6501 Hope this is of interest. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Thanks, Tom, you confirmed my suspicion that the XPEGs started at engine #501. It is interesting that engines 501 and 502 went into such later cars; perhaps they knocked around Morris Engines Branch for half a year before finding their way to Abingdon. Could it be possible that, as the first two engines of the new series, they failed final inspection and were remanufactured before being finally shipped? To add more intrigue, the T Register production records show that XPEG #2453 went into car #8632. Jack |
| Jack Long |
| What is intriguing about XPEG 2453 Jack? Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| Matthew, It was intriguing because Tom's records show that XPEG 502 went into car 8632 but the Register says that car got engine 2453. Jack |
| Jack Long |
| Jack et al: As for the typo Jack noticed - I apologize to one and all. There seems to have been a problem with the early XPEG engines, since 8 of the first 24 engines needed to be switched out after leaving the assembly line (and presumably after testing), due to some flaw (we never learn what). They do seem to have gotten things under control very quickly, since there are only VERY engine changes thereafter. Here's what the paper has to show: TF6501 507 6502 501, but engine change to 616 6503 506, but ditto to 547 6504 503 6505 513 6505 518 6507 517 but ditto to 617 6508 510 but ditto to 556 etc. In terms of engines, XPEG/501 was put in TF 8362 XPEG/502 in TF 8476 XPEG5/03 in TF 6504 XPEG/504 in TF 6509 XPEG/505 in TF 6515 XPEG/506 in TF 8379 XPEG/507 in TF 6501 Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| No apologies needed, Tom. Your research is a great resource for all of us. |
| Jack Long |
| Great Thread! |
| Dave Braun |
| a lot of the early XPAG engines seam to have gone blewey, mine included. I always suspected a broken crank or rod |
| D. Sander |
| Dave - I was noting early XPEG engines, and it seems doubtful that blown engines that early would have taken place. My guess is that testers found low power, leaks, rough running, etc. as causes why the engines were changed early on. I've mentioned it before, but one sad owner was considerably cheered when I could tell him, based on the production records, that the engine in his car - although it disagreed with the on-line database - was actually the CORRECT replacement engine. The on-line db in error listed the original engine, rather than the replacement one. I'm slowly working my way through the records, trying to correct such errors, add supplementary information like engine swaps, and also provide the last digit when the on-line db cuts it off. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
This thread was discussed between 05/07/2014 and 09/07/2014
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