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MG TD TF 1500 - Value of Matching Numbers

In the US, my experience is that a car with the original, matching engine is a plus - or at least, if the engine does NOT match, it is a minus. I suggested to someone the other day that a TD with a non-matching engine is worth at least a thousand less than one with the correct engine. Because they are rarer and worth more IMHO, a Mark II with non-matching engine is worth $2,000 less than a matching car. I've probably turned down a half dozen Mark II cars with non-matching engines, just because they felt somehow imperfect, and were destined to stay that way.

But I have leaned that this seems not to be the case in the UK; it really does not seem to affect the value at all whether a car has the matching engine or not. The feeling seems to be that it's nice if they match, but not significant in any way.

As many of you know, with my copies of the factory production records i can search engines and chassis numbers, and mix and match. I recently identified a complete long-block eBay engine as from a Mark II, and was pleased to locate the correct car in the UK, in hopes of reuniting them. I bought the engine, but the car's owner was not at all interested in retrieving "his" engine, much to my surprise. I told him I wanted no profit on the transaction, and I even offered to buy the internals and send him the block only to save shipping. He was not interested, unless the entire deal to him (including shipping) was $1,000. Not likely.,..

I won't say I was not disappointed, as this is only the second time in all my MG years that I was able to match an engine with the car from which it had been removed. Interestingly different perspective over here.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

We in the major cities in the US in the 50's and 60's engine swaps for the exact engine (ie just a few hundred or maybe a 1000 off) were the norm when major overhauls were required. It got the customer back driving in as little as one day.

They would take your old engine out and pull the components. Sometimes the head would stay with the car (short block) but often both parts were swapped as a unit. Generally would pull items such as the distributor, fuel system, pan, valve cover etc.

In many cases they had to pull the tag off of the block because the car was registered to the engine number. My car had such treatment. My brass tag matches the production number but the number stamped into the block is about 1000 newer. This was done around 1958 or so I think.

The Gold Seal engines of the factory were also another option.

In more rural areas they did not have much choice.

So I would relax the criteria to make sure the engine is appropriate, rather than an exact match.

Having said that, it really only matters to cars that will be concours anyway as long as the engine is appropriate for that car (ie no 1250's on a 1500 and no TD2's on a 1950 car)


Christopher Couper

I don't think it's just the UK. Most of the old timers I've met over here (and some of us younger ones) feel the same way.

A few decades ago, people would laugh that anyone cares about the engine serial number. They weren't even sequential - it was just a matter of which engine the guy grabbed out of the line on his way back from lunch. So long as it's the proper TYPE of engine is all that matters. Sure it's neat from a historical perspective if the number on the engine matches the one on the maker's plate. But any of 100 different engines could have ended up in any one car. It isn't like each engine was designed for a specific chassis. And if someone cares that much, they can get a reproduction engine tag with any number they like.

Now if we're talking about a race car then it's more historically important, because that engine would have been developed along with that particular chassis over its lifetime. But an MG TD? I just can't see paying more for one just because the engine number matches the plate.

All most MG people care about is that the car feels like it is supposed to when you're driving it. Leave the concourse stuff to the Bugatti owners. I prefer to enjoy my car as intended by the designers! ;)

Disclaimer: My engine is the original and I do appreciate that. But I would have bought it regardless.
Steve S

I’ve seen a similar attitude difference regarding shotguns. In the US a big deal is made over having the original case colors, stock finish, and bluing. In the UK, not so much. On the other side it was/is common to send a high end piece back to the maker or other shop to be refinished and tuned up, so as to speak. As long as the correct finish is applied, everyone seems happy.

I guess we think that having matched numbers somehow means it hasn’t been “messed with” even though we know it really only means a block and plate are still traveling in close formation.

60 years on my engine and plate are still traveling together and it does make me feel better only because I think someone else may feel it's more valuable. Go figure...
JE Carroll

I like the idea of matching numbers on my car, not for it's supposedly increase in value dollar wise, but just the fact that knowing the guys at the factory had their hands on this engine and laid it in the chassis when the car was built. Been trying for over three years to get some known paper work on the car that two owners back has. I keep getting promises, but nothing happens with this guy. Disgusting situation. PJ
Paul S Jennings

I think we're seeing two different values at play here ...

a) Those who see their T-Series as an element of active pleasure and drive their cars regularly, and b) Those who see their car as a 'collector' or show vehicle, in which matching numbers become a force coming from the American muscle car fraternity, where matching numbers are critical to their value.

On this forum, we see both sides.

I can understand if our MGs were high-value cars, where rarity plays into the picture, but our cars are relatively common, so I can't really see the importance.

Many readers of this forum know that I am the original and only owner of TF4592, and my block isn't stamped with the engine nbr.

So what's the big deal; especially when one can buy a virgin car plate and a virgin engine octagon, and stamp them with any numbers they want?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Over the years the most "asked" questions I get on the TF:
#1: "Is that a kit car?" (ARGHHHHH)
#2: "Is that all original?"
#3: "Is that the original engine?"
(Parking lots, car shows, and police on #3!)

IMHO: Matching engine is a big deal in "certain" cars, and can greatly have an impact on worth..
Best examples: Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs.
I worked for a Pontiac dealer as a kid (lot boy) in 67/68 and have a good idea just how many Firebirds were built with a OHC 6 cyc engine. I ordered and purchased a 68 COFA Firebird w/ a 428 ram air engine. IN that the 400 was the largest production engine made, that one would be more than "significant" today!

Fast forward many years and I was looking at purchasing a 68 convertible 400 advertised as "numbers matching". In the sellers mind,(not mine), "matching numbers" was "engine & tranny" not car & engine. A vin check revealed this "400 ram-air badged" car left the factory w/an OHC6. I did not buy it!

When I purchased the TF it was advertised as "numbers matching". Back then (no inter-web search at the time) the only way to know was to send for BMHT cert. I have 2 for my TF. First one was a typo with wrong engine number. Second one is correct, but damn skippy, I would have gone after the seller if it would have been the wrong engine!

IMHO: Depends on the car...and "what" you are after.
I would buy a OHC 6 Firebird with a blown motor over a "posser 400" as I could then re-build "Fred" with a period 428 ...if I had the money. LOL

David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

I don't have the original engine in my MKII. Would love to find it if possible but the money I would have into it would not justify the cost.

I would like to provide you my engine SN and see if it might exist somewhere though. I'll follow that up with an email to you if you don't mind.

Larry.
L Rutt

I agree with Tom Lange. Cars with matching numbers are more desireable than those whose engines have been swapped. Particularly so when the car has been faithfully restored to its original condition with as many bits that it left the factory with as is humanly possible. My goal is to repair & restore rather than replace. Carini places a higher value on restored cars with matching numbers & this is reflected at the auctions. Sure a TD isn't a Bugatti but it is getting harder & harder to find a genuinely unmolested car these days & one that looks just like it did when it left Abingdon, with the engine & chassis number matching the original ID plate could, should & would bring more money IMHO. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I agree as well my TF 1500 has matching numbers and it is very satisfying to know that.
Backed the TF out of the shed today first time in the sunshine in 6 months that was satisfying as well.
I am not restoring as such just a good general tidy up and fix the mechanical stuff the butchers have been operating on over the years.

I'm happy


Regards


George
G Mills

I agree with David, that is the standard set of questions I always get about my TF. Reality TV has made matching numbers a Big Deal. So, I am happy that mine has its original engine.

Of course, there are always experts like the fellow the other week who argued with me that the TD was the last T series built and that my TF must be some kind of bastardized custom or kit car. I just shrugged and thanked him for the enlightenment. No point in arguing with an expert.
Jack Long

Last year I was in the market for a good TF1500, which are quite rare in the UK, which had to be an original UK car in the same colour as original (save for modern paint composition differences). I would not even go and view any car whose engine number and chassis number were non-original, or that was in a different paint colour, or converted from left hand drive.

Why? My experience of an in-depth review of the UK market strongly suggested that matching numbers do matter here and affect the actual selling price. A recognised UK expert on T type cars, Barrie Jones, is author of the essential buyer's guide to TD, TF, and TF1500, and pointed out that non-original colour, conversions to right hand drive, and non-matching numbers, were factors that could all drive down the sale price. My experience of the market when car hunting suggests he is correct.

I bought my car in October 2013 after a lengthy search, helped by UK MG Octagon Club members, and it has the original features mentioned above. It was a very expensive car, is in regular use (3,000 miles so far this year), using it all year round, and it is also an award winning car at some of the shows I go to - just for the fun of it!

Cheers,

Neil.
1955 MG TF1500
N D Wallace

Jack,
My favorite "expert" to date has to be the father explaining to his son: "Now this is a real mg, with the engine in the back, were it belongs."...as he pointed to the car next to me with the orange and yellow shag carpet in the bonnet.
Who was I to argue, after all the license plate said: "Real MG"!
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

Personally, and remember this is strictly my own opinion, a TC/D/F will never reach the point where matching numbers will ever have more than a $2-3k advantage in price. There are too many of them, they're not truly historically valuable, and restoration costs can never be recouped when sold.
Gene Gillam

An interesting note about experts etc at cars shows since we are going off topic here.

At a recent show they invited middle school kids to attend with a chaperon. He walked them through the various classes pointing out important cars as they went, usually pausing for just a few moments for the special cars.

At my TD he sat them down and gave them a 10 minute lecture on the evolution of sports cars in America and how this MG (my TD) was one of the important cars that got the entire movement started. It was fascinating to see the reaction of the children to such a humble car compared to all the million dollar plus cars they were surrounded by.
Christopher Couper

Great story Christopher.

When I show my TD, I hear a lot of "you need to upgrade the engine to a 350 Chevy"

Bill
TD24570
Bill Brown

Well whatever the consensus on matching engine numbers I quite glad all six cars in my collection, including the MGTD have matching numbers.

John Quilter (TD8986)

Anything has value to someone. The question is, how does value affect your ownership of the car?

In my view, to those who drive their cars a lot, value has no real importance because you will never sell it. And for those who will sell their cars at some point, we have to keep in mind that the MG community is different than most in that it's generally made up of a bunch of drivers.

Those who live to show their cars and win trophies will always want numbers matching. Even the MGB guys where there are no matching numbers are trying to find them in order to gain some sort of edge over the competition. But only some of your potential buyers are going to pay extra for it.

So does it have value? Depends on who is looking for an MG TD at that particular moment. There is no definitive yes or no.
Steve S

This thread was discussed between 14/08/2014 and 15/08/2014

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