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MG TD TF 1500 - Welding Holes in Sumps

A few threads in the archive on welding aluminium but none on this topic. Obvious problems are the sump seems to retain oil even after it has been cleaned. An attempt today by my cousin using his Tig was not successful. He was able to produce a lovely running weld on a piece of aluminium plate, but the sump wouldn't cooperate. I can Mig but know nothing about welding aluminium except that the area MUST be meticulously clean and free of oxidation. Acetone or a suitable cleaning solvent and a clean brass or stainless brush is essential. So the holes that you can see in the attached pics of the sump, need the attention of a specialist Tig welder (very expensive); some expert welding advice from this forum, or has anyone had any success with Pratley magic metal? I have also heard that JB weld has been used successfully. Cheers
Peter TD 5801





P Hehir

Jeepers Peter, them’s serious holes! I had a 6” long crack in a spare YA sump; ground out the walls of the crack (inside the sump) to a v shape and after thorough cleaning, filled the valley with JB Weld. Result seems to be a completely sealed invisible mend. I say “seems” because I donated the sump to a fellow in NSW. But it appeared to be completely successful.
Yours,
John.
J P Hall

Hi Peter. Most of the aluminium welding I have done was on plate when I was making the rear crankshaft seal kits. I used oxy (because it was what I have) which would not suit a sump because of the heat involved. However, I do know that different composition rods suit different purposes. If I remember correctly, I used 5% magnesium rods for my seal kit jobs but I think I used something else when I welded my neighbour's cast aluminium letterbox bracket (about 30 years ago). This probably applies to TIG as well. I used lots of flux too, on both parts and rod. I think it was sodium fluoride, which I got from C.I.G. or B.O.C.
Bob
R L Schapel

Thanks John and Bob. I have now seen another attempt to weld up a sump and my cousin's effort was at least as good, if not better. The issue is getting the rod to flow, so he was not prepared to continue. This is another angle of the area he worked on. I suspect that the sump is an alloy and the additional metal/s are also causing the problem. Keen to hear from someone who has either successfully done this or had it done? It does look like Pratley's Steel Putty or the original JB Weld is the way to go. This comparative test is worth a look, although none are really 'sump' relevant, except for the degree of adhesion to the cleaned piece of steel. Pause the chart at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM4IGweHT2k Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

I had a sump with punch out damage caused by a broken oil pump drive gear and crankshaft throw. Local machine shop TIG welded it with no issues and it was completely invisible when done. The welder was a self taught guy in my little home town..no hi-tech aerospace skill training. Just a good machine shop welder.

Regards, Tom
tm peterson

Hi Peter, I have not tried it but this may help.
https://youtu.be/tiFA_EmVXsU
Gabriel Martínez



Peter, I am not a welder,an have no idea about welding aluminium, but I suspect that the aluminium is very porous and has absorbed a lot of oil.
You could try boiling it in a bath of water with some sort of degreaser or detergent to see if that makes a difference, then try welding it again. Just a thought! Cheers.
R E J Stewart

Thanks Tom. That's encouraging. I'll contact a few places tomorrow. I'd rather have it welded as long as it isn't going to break the bank. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hi Peter, the sump drain plug on TF 2071 came with a stripped thread. Through a third party I had a hydraulic pipe fitting tig welded in. They did a beautifully neat job and I could easily adapt the screw on cap to contain a strong magnet. So, it can be done!
Chris
C I Twidle

I was going to suggest Heliarc welding until I noticed it was the same as TIG. :-)
Christopher Couper

Peter

Contact these fellas, https://www.castolin.com/eutectic-australia-pty-ltd

A rep may even come to you and do a sample repair for you.

Graeme
G Evans

When I had my TD engine rebuilt, a weak spot was found in the sump and had to be welded. It was TIG welded, and was noted to me that it was very difficult to do a good weld.

It was noted that since the sump alloy is somewhat porous, and filled with oil, even after a diligent cleaning, oil still found its way out of the alloy when welding was attempted. Eventually the welder got it clean enough to weld up the hole. Its a little "ugly" but it works.

I am not a welder, but the shop that did the work are very experienced with welding aluminum. So I am just passing this on.

... CR
CR Tyrell

The porosity of cast aluminium results in contamination of the arc in TIG welding due to the evaporation of any infused oil. It's possible to pre-heat the casting with a gas burner to drive off contaminants, but even after a thorough cleaning, TIG welding may not be possible. One should use a 5% silicon rod to match the silicon content of the sump's casting.
The alternative is once again to pre-heat and use oxy-acetylene with plenty of flux and a silicon rod.
E A Worpe

Or buy another pan either a good used or a reproduction that probably has better metallurgy
W A Chasser

Time to get the gas out and some low melting point flux cored alloy filler rods

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1njyuPBIH0

https://www.ebay.com.au/i/153737808418?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=153737808418&targetid=1087152002312&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9072357&poi=&campaignid=9767734220&mkgroupid=99377634146&rlsatarget=aud-786643580326:pla-1087152002312&abcId=1145981&merchantid=7364522&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-r71BRDuARIsAB7i_QPmt0TxMr4Dhhy531fe9quHusmBjtMqC2gB0XZG9fX7L6dhauBVj3UaAgBqEALw_wcB
William Revit

Lots of good advice. The most impressive was from Willy. The link to the low melting point filler rods was a real eye opener! The product works beautifully on perfectly clean non ferrous metals, quick and incredibly strong and the rods are really cheap. But - I don't have oxy, so because of heat dissipation due of the size of the sump, my propane torch wont generate enough heat. However the biggest issue remains and this is the porosity of the aluminum and its propensity to both absorb and retain oil. I know this is the problem because I could see the hydrocarbons being released and burnt as the TIG was in use, but I don't yet have a practical, proven and foolproof means of extracting the oil from the metal close to the edges of the holes. The sump appears to be scrupulously clean - (wire brushing with a clean SS brush did little to alter the surface, indicating that there was little if any apparent oxidation); and apart from the holes in the base, it's in almost new condition, so I want to repair it. It's way too good to give up on. I'd prefer to have it welded rather than use the epoxies. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter: Do you have access to MAPP? Its hotter than propane.

https://www.amazon.com/MR-TORCH-HZ-8388B-Igniting-Cylinder/dp/B01M7RTAKV/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=Mapp+Gas+Torch&qid=1588644917&sr=8-9
Christopher Couper


Hi Peter. After you save the sump ( by what ever means of welding you do) coat the insides with Glyptal paint. It will help stop the porosity of the alumimium . Ralph.
R E J Stewart

Peter

You need to practice some diplomacy and sweet talk. Prior to attempting repairs place the sump in your Missus oven over night. One it will cook some of the oil out, two it will bring the whole sump up to a temperature where localised application of heat will be effective.

Review the Youtube clip the temperature required is only 730 degrees F, Propane burns at 3600 degrees F.

I know Eutectic did have rods similiar to Wills advice, a very good welder Mate did their course and repaired an aluminium teapot.

I reiterate contact a rep and you might get the job done as a freebie. Tell them you will post the end result worldwide.
G Evans

Again, thank you all. Graeme you were spot on with the prep. I had the sump welded today by a professional for not much more than a slab of top quality beer; who confirmed that moisture in the aluminium is the issue, whether that be water, oil or whatever. He used oxy to heat the area to be welded and you could see the tide of moisture retreating away from the holes. The key is to then use the TIG before the moisture has a chance to return to the vicinity of the hole as the heat lessens. This happens surprisingly quickly. He had to apply the oxy two or three times while he was using the TIG. In a couple of places you could see evidence of hydrocarbon burning which indicates he delayed reapplying the heat for just a fraction too long.

Obviously using oxy is a job for someone who really knows what they're doing as too much heat will simply melt the sump. I asked that he not linish the job so as to reduce the cost. I'll dress it up tomorrow using a wax to prevent my linishing belt from absorbing the aluminium. A couple of pics attached. I'll get hold of some Glyptal type paint Ralph (probably a generic insulating varnish, as it does the same job and is much cheaper) and do what you suggest. The pitting on the exterior I'll fill and smooth using JB Weld, prior to painting the sump engine colour. The point of all of this is that TIG welding an M.G. alloy sump using aluminum rods is indeed possible, moisture is the enemy and needs to be driven away from the holes, before AND while using the TIG. Job done. Cheers
Peter TD 5801





P Hehir

Peter: Once you grind all of that extra material away I wonder if you can find someone with a light "shot peen" system that can restore the sand casting texture?
Christopher Couper

Peter you could also use epoxy paint and brush it on the inside to seal it up. Whatever you use it’ll have to be cleaned thoroughly before it’s application

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

The Glyptal investigation yielded some interesting results. This link https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/is-glyptal-engine-paint-worth-the-bother.644312/ says it all. I'll just clean up the welds on the inside, the pitting on the exterior with some JB Weld, give it a coat of engine enamel and leave it at that. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The linished sump. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Peter, back in the day when we were building racing engines, we would coat the inside with Glyptal to create a sealed surface inside, plus the oil would flow off the surface faster. PJ


PJ Jennings

Hi PJ. Have a read of the jalopy journal thread. It looks into the merits of the Glyptal experience. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This thread was discussed between 03/05/2020 and 07/05/2020

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