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MG TD TF 1500 - What are these Wire Wheels on my TF?

> Which (if either) of the two types of 48-spoke painted wire wheels on Jo Ann's early TF are original to the car?

> What are the non-original wheels?

Two of the wheels are side-laced. Two of them are side and center laced. The spare is side and center laced. Both have the same offset rear (rim to rear cone) -- about 3-1/2". TF681, Oct 12, 1953, one of first 200 TFs built.

Left Tire in Photos = Side Laced
Right Tire in Photos = Side Laced and Center Laced

The TF Service Parts List has only one wire wheel for TFs. No details.

A diagram in the Operation Manual appears to show side laced wheels.

I removed the wheels to lube the splines to prevent corrosion last week. First time since she bought the car last year. Two are on one side. The other two are on the other side, so the difference is hidden.

BTW - thanks to posts in the archives for explaining how to lube the splines. Absolutely no reference in the WSM or Op Manual.

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF681
TF7211





LM Cook

Diagram in TF Operation Manual.

Lonnie
TF681
TF7211

LM Cook

Lonnie
MG TD, TF, MG Arnolt Borrani 15 x 4 Wire Wheels are by the look of it, Side laced. 60 spoke?
Could be them I guess.
My TD is center laced chrome now. 60 spoke.
Rod






Rod Jones

Lonnie,
Looking at the original wheels I took of the TD they are 48 spoke side laced wires. Not sure where the PO go them though.
several Spoked were broken and very out of true. Hence I went to Hendrix for new ones.
for what it's worth
Rod

Rod Jones

Well I never really found out where to draw the line on TF wire wheels. Look at the image you posted from the operations manual. Notice the center hub has a very sharp profile. That would be the shape of very early TF hubs.

Your hubs are like 55 TF hubs and later, which are rounder.

So when did they switch? I have never been able to tell.

But none the less going with the wheels that have all the spokes to the outside like your left image is what you want.
Christopher Couper

Lonnie
Just to confuse things I notice your centre laced wheel has the outer spokes from the hub to the centre laced up left over right where the other wheel is right over left
I have a different issue with mine-
All 4 wheels are spoked up side laced onto the outer larger diameter part of the rim as normal BUT I have two laced left over right and two right over left---I run them on opposite sides of the car and noone's ever picked up on it --even them fussy know it all concourse judges -- lol
Having checked lots of TF's trying to find which way is correct the norm appears to be laced out flat to the out side and laced right over left the same as the flat laced wheel (left) in your pic.

willy
William Revit

Here are a couple of photos of some original wheels on a 55 TF.




L E D LaVerne

And the replacement (Dayton) 48 spoke wheels on my TF

L E D LaVerne

I replaced the 48 spoke wheels with some 60 spoke jobs because of spoke breakage. The 60 spoke wheels have some center laced spokes that the 48 do not have. I didn't take the time to try and count the ones in your photo but I would imagine the wheel with the center rim spokes are in fact a 60 spoke wheel. As a side note...not that anyone cares. The original knock offs were made of steel and not the brass replacements that are available today. That explains why an original wheel hammer would have a copper facing. With the brass replacements the copper will damage the wings and requires a lead hammer. I don't know when the change was made but I do know that the MGB's came with a lead hammer when new.
L E D LaVerne

LEDLaVerne
Your original wheels are as I decided they should be, flat laced to the larger dia. part of the rim and laced right over left inside and out from the hub---interesting the Dayton is right over left on the inside and left over right on the outside--I have 2 original wheels like this and two normal as in your originals

willy
William Revit

LaVerne,

I stopped using a copper hammer years ago (but still have it). I switched to a CS Osborne split-head mallet with rawhide inserts. Used to be able to buy inserts for $5 each. Now, they're $32 each. A good alternative is nylon (same price) but copper inserts are $45 per insert.

The world has gone mad !!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

LaVerne and others ...

Guess I have a lot to learn about wire wheels. My other TF (7211) has disc wheels.

You're right - the side/center laced wheels are 60 spoke. The side-only laced are 48 spokes. I didn't know enough to recognize when they were sitting side-by-side. Guess that the two 60-spoke wheels are aftermarket replacements.

New tires arrive today. I'll inspect spokes when the tires are removed. Four spokes on the 48-spoke wheels are bent, two on two wheels. The spare, also 48-spoke, has a broken spoke, but I don't want to remove the tire to fix it.

I mounted each wheel on a rear hub on jack stands and spun them. They appear to run true side-to-side and up-and-down.

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF681 (70 years old this Saturday, 14-Oct-2023)
TF7211 (69 years old last month, 23-Sep-2023)
LM Cook

Lonnie: "but I don't want to remove the tire to fix it."

Can you just deflate the tire and break the bead on one side to get access to the broken spoke? I agree removing the tire is PITA I would not like to take on either.
Christopher Couper

Lonnie, more often than not you will have to remove a number of other spokes in order to just replace one. On an original wheel the spokes will likely be frozen to the nipples and you will destroy both trying to remove them. If they are frozen just cut the spoke in two and remove it to the trash bin. So I would suggest you buy more spokes and nipples than you think you will need. I have had to replace single spokes on the 48 spoke wheels and you can do it with the tire on the wheel. First let all of the air out of the tube and then push the tire down to where you will have access to the end of the nipple. I had a bag of spokes and nipples that won't fit the 60 spoke wheels in the shop, but I may have already given them away. I'll have to go take a look.
L E D LaVerne

I broke a lot of spokes on the 48 spoke Daytons. Everyone was a short spoke and they all snapped the large end off inside the center hub. Bad parts? I can't say. but after arriving at a hotel for the night and walking around the car I found 7 I think it was broken right in a row after cruising just before a 70 mph I decided that was enough of that crap and I replaced all 5 wheels with the 60 spoke jobs. Bent spokes more often than not are the result of an old school tire shop that had the single torpedo stud designed to go inside a steel wheel lug hole to keep the wheel from turning while the tire was removed or installed to the wheel. When used with wire wheels these shops would just place the torpedo stud between the spokes and the result would be a bent spoke or two. Modern machines grab the inner part of the rim and are much better for that process.





L E D LaVerne

In this case I did remove the tire. Pretty scary I'd say.




L E D LaVerne

For those wondering...no they are not chrome so no hydrogen embrittlement going on. They are stainless




L E D LaVerne

To replace the spokes required a number of non broken spokes be removed to put it back together. Once reasemmbled I put the wheel on a front hub with the car on the lift and used a dial indicator to put it back true.

I just looked in the shop and I do have 3 of the shorter spokes in stainless as well as about a half dozen stainless nipples. I also have one long spoke in stainless and 6 long spokes in steel but I do not recall if the long ones were for the 48 spoke wheels. I no longer have a wheel to compare to. Depending on who built the wheel the hub ends may have a slightly different bend as well. You are welcome to the stuff if you want to have a go at it and are willing to pay for the shipping and aren't in any hurry as I no longer have any use for them.





L E D LaVerne

LaVerne: I suspect you broken spoke problem was because of the chroming. Chrome plating makes spokes brittle. I think there is a way to do it so they don't get brittle but I cannot remember what the process is since I use painted wheels. The only spoke I every had bent was as you depicted, bad shop with the wrong equipment.
Christopher Couper

The chroming process causes hydrogen embrittlement and it is an issue with chrome spokes. These however are stainless steel so that cannot be the cause. I drive the car very hard and like the look of the 48 spoke wheels but I don't like em that much to risk anything further. On a long trip in 2012 I stopped for fuel in Minnesota and saw 3 broken together on a rear wheel. I'm pretty sure the cause was a big pot hole a week earlier in Mt Raneier National Park. I've had 60 spoke wheels on my MGB for 30 years and have zero issues with those wheels. I figure I'm good to go now with the 60's on the TF.
L E D LaVerne

Laverne: Thanks for pointing out your spokes are stainless.

Pro Tip: Don't drive behind me. I will frustrate the heck out of you with my speed limit driving and slow takeoffs. :-)
Christopher Couper

Thats ok Chris.... I know how to pass of I want to.

L E D LaVerne

Lonnie,

Where did you find the archives on greasing splines? I did find something years ago on an Austin Healey forum.

It advocated applying the grease to the wheel splines, not the axle splines.

Thanks,

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Hi Peter,

I did a number of searches of the BBS Archives and Google. This is one of the BBS search terms that I used: "wire wheel splines"

This thread was good: "Thread: A smear or a dollop or lump....or nope?"

As a wire wheel newbee, I did a lot of Googling to learn about lube, balancing, and truing. Seems like everyone has his own special lube, method, and reason.

Here's my take-away from my searches:

> Lube on splines is primarily to prevent corrosion.
> Axle-type grease and Copper or Aluminum based anti-seize are often recommended.
> Oil is recommended for wheels that are taken off frequently, such as race cars.
> Wipe off lube from the tapers of the wheels and axles. Leave a thin hint of lube on the tapers to prevent corrosion.
> As you and the Healey forum noted: Put a thin smear of lube on the wheel splines. Put a very thin smear of lube on the axle splines, some advocate no lube on the axle splines. A thick smear of lube on the axles will be pushed toward the inside of the car and pile up against the taper when the wheel is installed on the axle. Grease may possibly drip onto the brake shoes. (I saw this pile of grease on the axles of my TF this week when I removed them about 200 miles after greasing the splines. I'm still learning.)
> Lube the threads and taper of the knockoff.
> Remove the wheels, clean the splines, and apply new lube about every one to two years is often recommended. Some say every few months.

I won't even get into the recommendations on how tight the knockoff should be. Opinions by manufacturers differ 180 degrees.

Lonnie
TF681
TF7211
LM Cook

Hi Guys. Fascinating discussion.
I used to break spokes on my racing TC. Unlike LED's breakage issue, it was always outer (long) spokes which broke where they enter the wheel centre. So, I replaced all outer spokes with ones which had much thicker butts. I had to drill out the holes and re-chamfer etc. There are half the number of outer spokes as inner spokes (except on side-spoked pre-war Rudge wheels), so it was easier on my budget than buying 60 spokers. I haven't broken a spoke since. Agreed, 60 spokers might be stronger. However, if someone is keen to retain 48 spokers, thicker spokes are another solution.

Willy, I thought I was the only one who noticed right over left etc. Don't worry, I agree that no judges will notice. If they do, they shouldn't penalise because I bet they varied from original. I have built wheels myself and probably spoked both ways. I am going to try not to look, but I won't succeed.

Good to hear that lead hammers don't mark brass knockoffs. Knockoffs on both my TCs never mark with the copper, but I was disappointed with some new knockoffs I tried (and removed). Now I feel better about keeping the "new" ones for my wife's MGA!

As always, great to learn from this forum
Bob Schapel
Bob Schapel

Willy, I couldn't help but look!
Nearly all my 16" road TC and 15" race TC wheels are spoked like Lonnie's drawing from WSM. All the inner (short) spokes are like that diagram. One of five 16" road TC outers are the other way and the race car 15" pair I spoked myself, outers are one each way. I could say that was done for aerodynamics :) All my wife's MGA wheels are like the diagram. I won't open the cartons to look at her new, slightly broader, chrome wheels, but the s/h painted spare (possibly ex MGC?) is the other way round inner and outer. But I won't let it worry me.
Bob
Bob Schapel

Sorry Bob, You're like me, you'll spend the next month looking at everyone's wheels-
I mentioned lacing directions to a mate and he got all his wheels out, he found 47 , 48 spoke wheels. Out of the 47 , 44 were the same as Lonnies and 3 had the outer spokes from the hub laced left over right.
As you say it doesn't really matter and I've seen a National concourse winner with 3 one way and 1 and the spare going the other way.
You'll get a laugh out of me, I was spoking up one of my son's racing bike wheels, I usually poke all the spokes through the hub first then sit the hub on the bench and lay the spokes out, did that, got them all crossed accross then sat the rim down and poked the spokes through the holes and started the nipples---Well i had one hole left over on the rim---checked the hub,there was a spoke in every hole, counted the spokes ,all good and convinced myself the rim was a dud with too many holes, so started to pull it apart and discovered that someone that looks exactly like me had poked one of the spokes in the valve hole---grrrrrr
With bike wheels there is an option of butted spokes that have the thread and the head of the spoke normal size but the shank of the spoke is a smaller diameter(butted)--If you have trouble breaking spokes the trick is to go a smaller wasted diameter and that stops the ends breaking off------sometimes
I have wheels here off an early 6cylinder Austin Healey and they have wasted(butted) spokes, there's a step in the size of the spoke about 30mm out from the hub as in Laverne's pic of his stainless spokes, whereas I think the original TF wheels were a straight spoke-or maybe very gradually tapered from the hub to the nipple
willy
William Revit

Lonnie,

I also did a lot of research, aka “Googling” and found this from an Austin Healey forum.

Quote:

Here's a tip.
You can use grease or anti seize - your preference.
But you should grease the WHEEL splines, and the hub and spinner threads, and
lightly wipe all tapered faces with minimal grease.
You DON'T actually grease the splined hub splines themselves.
Try it yourself - here's an experiment.
Grease the splined hub, not the wheel splines. For the sake of your
experiment, fill the valleys of the splined hub with grease. Just to make it
bloody obvious. No grease on the wheel splines.
Push the wheel onto the splined hub, grease lightly your spinner & hub thread
& tapers, and tighten up the wheel with the spinner. Now loosen the spinner,
remove the wheel, and look at the back of the splined hub.
See all that grease at the back of the hub & back of the wheel??????
It ends up in places that do nothing to help your wheels & hubs.
The wheel pushed the grease into the back of the hub/ wheel.
Now test 2.
Degrease everything. Clean & dry. Now pack the WHEEL splines with grease to
the top of the valleys. Grease the splined hub thread & spinner thread, and
lightly grease the tapers.
Now push the wheel on.
This time, the hub pushed the extra/excess grease to the spinner side of the
hub, didn't it??
Now wipe off the excess which was pushed out, put on your spinner & tighten.
No excess grease floating around in your wheel.
Obviously the amount of grease pushed in or out is also dependent on how good
your wheels & hubs are.
Best
Chris

Unquote:

It seemed to make a lot of sense to me. I used anti-seize.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter: I like that tip. I must admit I was in the former camp before but very light on the grease. And yes you could see the grease scattered onto the brakedrums and wheel hubs that had to be cleaned up.

Next time I take my wheels off (maybe 2030?), I will follow this tip.
Christopher Couper

Chris,

To be honest I did not have a clue, but this tip made the most sense. I used on my front wheels a couple of years ago.

I got new wheels through Bob Grunau, I need to get new hubs before I use them even though mine are not horrible.

New wheels, Alvin drums, should look pretty nice.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

This thread was discussed between 09/10/2023 and 16/10/2023

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