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MG TD TF 1500 - Wire Wheel Conversion

I received the wire wheel conversion from Moss without any instructions on how to proceed. Most of it is obvious, however, there are parts in the package that are unclear as to how to proceed. Anyone have an instruction set?
Ralph Cacace

Yep..tell you all about it tomorrow
MG LaVerne

Welcome to the world of wire wheels. IMHO nothing makes a car more "british" than wire wheels and a wooden dash cover. I love mine and would not part with them for anything.Mine are Daytons with hubs from England and they are also tubeless, no problems in almost 10 years of running on them. Do not clean them while they are hot after a run.
Tom Maine

Ralph,
I bought the whole kit from Moss one year ago. I was fortunate enough to speak to Brit in technical support first. He arranged to send the wire rims (5) direct from Moss to (Allen?) Hendrix Wire Wheels (336-852-8909)in Greensboro, NC. The rest of the package came direct to me.

He put on tubes and tires, trued the wires, shaved the tires, balanced, cleaned and tagged each wheel with the position they should take on the car.

I was converting from an old damaged set of Borani wire wheels to the new ones so my installation was probably different from yours. I also have a low riding luggage rack that folds up against the spare tire. I had to do a lot of modifying of the Moss adapter and the luggage rack to get it right, but now it's perfect.

I love the wheels. They look and perform great.

Persevere, you'll be happy.

Mort
Mort Resnicoff 50 TD (Mobius)


The Moss kit is pretty straightforward.


I have a few comments.....

1) Dont sell your current wheels and components that you change. Keep them. One day you might want to revert. You would not get much for them anyway.

2) The Moss wire wheels (in the UK at least) are tubeless - which I found surprising.

3) I found my wheels to be perfectly balanced as supplied. But if you do feel the need to get them balanced go to a proper wire wheel fitter who has the right balancing equipment - it is a specialist job that is not simply a matter of adding lead weights.

4) The only irritating thing was the need to weld the spare tyre holder / spline to the lugage rack. I am sure there may be a less intrusive way of attaching the spare wheel - but I dont know what it is.

5) I agree with Mort. Mine are a year old and have also performed very well - and look great. Painted silver of course would be more "period" than Chrome - but its a personal preference thing.

6) Since it was a common dealer modification - and since I can revert to the original if ever I wanted to. I personally dont get too hung up by it not being "correct". I am with Tom Maine on this...I just like the look and since I own and drive the car it is my business and no one else's.

R
Ray Coyte

Ralph, can you describe the pieces that you don't recognize the purpose of?
MG LaVerne

Thanks for the input. Converting to wire wheels looked to be straight forward except that there is a plate mounted to the hub for each wheel. Does it go in a particular area on the hub. Also there is an MG emblem. I would think that it mounts on the spare, but there is no hole on the chrome wheel nut. I will give Moss a call and see if they can help. The spare wheel parts mount directly on the spare tire holder using 3 bolts. No welding necessary for the TD.
Ralph Cacace

By plate ..do you mean the nut locking plate? It has two holes in it that go over the studs and the tabs are bent up against the nuts to lock them in position. Takes three per hub,
MG LaVerne

Which Moss part number did you get?

Parts 111-318, 328, 338, 348 state the following:

Wire wheel conversion kits are designed to convert your disc wheeled TD or TF to wire wheels. Each kit includes five 60-spoke wire wheels, four chrome wheel nuts, four splined hubs, four brake drums, one spare wheel adaptor, one wheel hammer, and all the studs, nuts, etc. for an easy installation. These kits are identical to the original TF factory option.
Christopher Couper

This is what Moss shows for the TD/TF conversion kit.

The splined hubs fit into each NEW brake drum, no special orientation, and are locked with studs/nuts and double tabs (not shown in the attached picture).

I assume the spare is just a regular knockoff that you need to drill a hole in for the radiator emblem (TD or TF) of your choice.

Christopher Couper

Before you proceed, it may be worthwhile reading The thread by Alex Waugh, April 2013, "New studs in new wire wheel hubs". If the wheel studs are not already installed in your hubs, this information can save you big problems.
JR Mahone

I ordered the Moss 111-328. I could not find the thread by Alex Waugh.
Ralph Cacace

Ralph: I think you will find that the Alex Waugh article will recommend that you have the studs pressed into the splined hubs with a hydraulic press. Failure to do so could cause the studs to spin in the recesses and not allow the drums to be secure.

Other than that the changeover is pretty straight forward. You will need to move your wheel bearings and should use new seals. Just swap the drums with the disc ones. Pay attention to the left/rights. Readjust the brakes and mount the wheels.

I suspect that you just drill a hole in the extra knockoff they give you for the spare and thread the medallion in it. That's what I did for my spare although I do not have the Moss kit, but built it up from TF parts. Sounds like the spare adapter is pretty straight forward as it mounts to the existing carrier.
Christopher Couper

Ralph, I'd recommend a new set of bearings and seals for the front hubs/ You still have to remove the old bearing to get the distance piece you will need out of the old hubs. Now is as good as any time if you have any doubts about the rear bearings as well...along with a new seal if you go that far.

Make sure you get the hubs mounted on the correct side or you will spin the knock offs off while driving. I believe the left front spindle nut is left hand thread (somebody confirm this) and all the rest are traditional right hand thread. The rear hub nuts are (should be 150 ft lbs) set pretty tight and I find a 3/4" breaker bar is best used with the tire still on the car and on the ground..in gear ...and the hand brake set. I think 1 1/8" socket was used...maybe 1 3/16 or 1 1/4 ...I don't recall exactly. Once the nut is broken loose you can the jack the car and finish removing the wheel and drum.

The reference to Alex's thread has to do with the studs that go through the back side of the new splined hubs. Alex had an issue with the studs deforming the flange on the hub to the point of being unusable. I'm not sure how he resolved the issue. I did not have that problem with mine.

If you have any questions, just ask. Quite a few of us have been down the same road.

MG LaVerne

The nut holding the drum and wheel on my 1950 TD is 1 5/16"...
Charles Duffy

LaVerne: From your picture it looks like Moss marked the hubs LH and RH but it would have been better to mark the other side (they may have) since the side shown will be covered by the brake drum once they are installed.
Christopher Couper

Based on your input using the Moss catalog section I have attached, I would eliminate the following items from the front suspension: 13, 14, 15, 16, 18 and end cap. Replace item 17. Do you do anything with the lock tabs such as bend the tab to stop nut rotation?

Ralph Cacace

Ralph you will not be eliminating any of the parts except the grease cap.

Item 13 will need to go back on the spindle. Pay attention to match the conical side back to the spindle.


Item 14 is the grease seal.. You should use a new seal on the new hub..most likely did not come with the kit. Search the archives and you should come up with a number to get one from a local parts house.

Item 15 is the inner bearing. Again I would use a new bearing. in the process of getting the old one out of the old brake drum you will most likely ruin it and even if you don't, just based on age it's probably due to be renewed. Again the numbers can be found in the archives.

Item 16 is the spacer that goes between the bearings and it will be used in the new hub.

Item 17...you didn't mention is the outer bearing and again a new one should be used.

Item 18 is the old brake drum which you are changing to one for a wire wheel hub. The old drum has value it it's not damaged. Since new replacements are not available, those running steel wheels have need for those or keep it in case you want to go back to steel wheels someday.

And lastly yes the tabs are bent up to hold the nuts in place after assembly. The picture here is from my steel wheel TD. You will see the same thing as you remove the parts from the hub/drum.

MG LaVerne

Picture of the drum with the seal and inner bearing removed. The distance piece is still inside of the hub.
Note the notch (there is one on the opposite side as well) which is used to place a drift to drive out the old bearing from the front side after removing the outer bearing and distance piece.

MG LaVerne

Which gets us to a whole new subject. How to pull the wire wheel drums from the front axle. If you have a very large puller with wide jaws you can slip it over the brake drum and pull it that way.

Since I don't have one I have found that using progressively larger sockets that I place over the shaft inside the hub that just sticks above the splined hub. Then I put the knockoff back on again and when I tighten it it pushes on the shaft and forces the hub from the shaft. Sometimes I have to repeat with a deeper socket to get the drum free.

Its tacky but it works and I don't have to buy an expensive puller I will rarely use.
Christopher Couper

I never updated everyone with what I'd did to solve my problem because I was rather upset (to put it lightly) about having to buy a replacement set of hubs due to the folks who pressed my studs in and mushtoomed the surface the drums rest on.

I bought new hubs and a whole new set of studs. I put the studs in with dry ice and got them good and cold. I then placed the hub into the drum and first used an impact wrench to pull them through.

NOTE!!!! Do NOT use this method. After I sheared off a stud and realized I'd stretched a couple others with this method, I decided to beat them in with a mallet while supporting the brake drum from below.

The main issue was that if all the studs are pressed in/pulled through with out the allignment of the drum present, the studs can cut their own holes that are not in alignment with the drum.

If one uses the nuts to keep the studs aligned in the drum/hub correctly, this solves the problem and no modification to the drums is necessary to fit the factory drum on a new hub. I hated to buy a new part and then modify the old non-broken part to fit my poorly assembled (by me) hub. It was just plain backwards.

So... In conclusion, use dry ice to cool the new studs (or even the old ones beat out of the old hub... I used a couple to replace the stretched ones), and if you feel so inclined, heat the hubs and drums in an oven to expand the holes before you fit the studs. As you fit the studs, install the nuts, keeping tension on the nuts (but don't use them to pull the studs through) so they will be true and aligned with the homes.

As I understand it, the studs in the wire wheel kits come pre assembled, so this will be a non issue for conversion kits, but if you already have WW and need to replace a hub, then my method will be required to properly set the new studs in the new hubs for proper alignment and flat mating surface.

Alex "learns it the hard way" Waugh
Alex Waugh

Moss kit does not come with the studs inserted into the hubs.
Ralph Cacace

the Moss catalog also shows a semi circular "grease retainer (item 31 in the picture)" in the wire wheel hub. Any info on installation of this?
M Morgan

So many modification kits sound like a good idea, until one sees just what is necessary to carry things out.

I parted out a chopped TF a few years ago and sold the entire wire wheel set-up including wheels, for $1,000. The TD owner who bought it wrote me later to say that after trying to install his Moss kit he had sold it on eBay and used the TF parts. He did the entire swap in less than a day!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

The grease retainer is a semi-circular spring clip with a block of rubber on it. This piece fits inside the front hub and is used to cover the hole that is in the hub where you install the cotter pin to lock the bearing nut. The rubber block goes over the hole to keep any grease from migrating out of the hole into the spline area of the hub. It is kept in place by the spring steel. This is the same as with the MGA wire wheel hub.

Hope this helps.
C.R. Tyrell

Thanks to C R Tyrell.
M Morgan

The saga of the wire wheel conversion continues. I had the bolts (studs) pressed into the hub (Moss #264-310 i.e.) The hub with the bolts does not fit into the drum. The holes in the drum appear to be too small to fit the bolts. Two solutions exist: One heat the drum and fit the bolts through the holes or drill out the drum to fit the bolts. If you heat the drum, you may never get it off the assembly later on. it would appear that the holes were not drilled to the proper diameter. Ant thoughts?
Ralph Cacace

Ralph: Are the holes too small or is the alignment of the bolts skewed enough that the collection will not line up with the hole pattern?

Perhaps it should have been pressed in while the hub was mounted on the drum but I am just speculating.
Christopher Couper

The holes are too small. I checked alignment and found they are dead on. I also checked another drum and found the same problem. I am trying to contact Moss and get their thoughts.
Ralph Cacace

Ralph,

This was roughly my experience, but mine were not aligned. The solution I opted for was new hubs and studs, then I installed them one at a time with the drum assembled on the hub using a mallet and dry ice (the nut as well, but only to make sure it went in straight).

When I was at your point, everyone else told me to ream out the drum, but my old drums fit fine on the hubs so I had no interest in adjusting a working part. That however is the less expensive solution based on where you're at. I was also worried that with reaming the holes I could introduce slop in the radial motion of the hub and drum assemblies. I finally bit the bullet and replaced the hubs... A second time.

Alex
Alex Waugh

This thread was discussed between 25/12/2013 and 10/01/2014

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